Cameo or Peach?

[Arbor]

That was what I thought( no guarantees), but in a previous post Rosa Moschata seemed pretty sure that Peaches would be produced. 

With enough attempts, it should happen. I know someone who tried to breed for bronze BS, and after ten years of working with splits he gave up. He managed to produce bronze sp in less time. This just shows that a great deal of breeding is based on a little luck and good fortune

 

[AugeredIn]

Crossover is very common -- that it occurs among a particular pair and between two particular points is subject to chance. There are many examples in other species of mutations existing on the same chromosome linking together or separating as a result of crossover. The "thought" that peafowl sex chromosomes deviate from the ZW system observed in other birds has me puzzled -- I have never come across any published study. Who is "thinking" this? Or are you saying that the Z passed on in sperm is often a newly-formed combination of different parts from the pair? That is the basic definition of crossover, allowing for further genetic diversity in offspring.

The Who is not for me to say. I think what is being proved is that crossover is not the random chance event originally thought. It is more of a regularly and predictably occurring event. I am saying that it seems that the Z passed on is normally a newly formed combination of different parts of the male pair. I'll try and post a prunett square that has been tossed around in the next day or so.

 

[Rosa moschata]

That was what I thought( no guarantees), but in a previous post Rosa Moschata seemed pretty sure that Peaches would be produced.

In chicken genetics, the pea comb and blue egg mutations are linked -- they exist on the same chromosome. This means they usually travel together -- a handy thing when people are breeding for Olive Eggers, since breeding from males with pea combs will usually indicate that they also have the blue egg mutation . But when breeding birds with only one copy of each of these mutations (which are dominant, so one copy is all that's needed for the traits to be visible), sometimes they separate in the next generation. Off the top of my head, I remember the incidence being about 3%, which relates to the distance between the two genes on the chromosome. The further apart they are, the greater the chances that they'll separate during crossover in a heterozygous bird. I have no idea the relative distance of Purple and Cameo on the Z chromosome, so I can't wager a guess as to the likelihood of crossover occurring between the two genes.

HOWEVER, I do remember the "History of Peach" mentioning the story of the first Peach hen's origins. Her father was IB split to Purple and Cameo. In the same clutch, an IB hen was produced. This indicates that crossover occurred TWICE in this one clutch -- once resulting in a new Z with both Purple and Cameo together, and another time resulting in a new Z with neither Purple nor Cameo. The father, being split to both, had two Zs -- one with Purple, and one with Cameo. So it would be impossible for an IB hen to be produced without crossover -- there was no "normal" IB Z chromosome to pass on. And I think I remember that a Peach hen occurred in another clutch with an IB split to Purple and Cameo father from that original breeder (Clifton Nicholson, Jr.) So, yes, it's not a guarantee that you'll get one in every clutch, but I think it's more likely that it'll occur over the course of several clutches than that Clifton "hit the lottery" twice in one year. I also remember another poster here briefly advising that IB split to Peach males will give occasional Purple and Cameo daughters -- again, requiring crossover. So that all leads me to believe that saying to expect some "surprise Peach daughters" is not outlandish advice -- if not in the first clutch, then probably over the course of several, and especially if he's set up with several hens at a time.

 

[Rosa moschata]

The Who is not for me to say. I think what is being proved is that crossover is not the random chance event originally thought. It is more of a regularly and predictably occurring event. I am saying that it seems that the Z passed on is normally a newly formed combination of different parts of the male pair. I'll try and post a prunett square that has been tossed around in the next day or so.

I thought you were saying that they don't pass on an entire Z but rather several independent chromosomes which are responsible for sex determination, which would make them unique among all other birds as known thus far. Now I understand what you mean.



I think it's far rarer that a sperm or egg is formed without crossover occurring on any chromosome than that crossover occurs. So yes, it could be said to be normal (or, rather, common) that the father's Zs are recombined. But how this relates to Peach is if the crossover occurs between the Purple and Cameo loci, and that would be related to their distance on the chromosome. In my immediately previous post, I mentioned the example of the pea comb and blue egg mutations in chickens, and that they stay linked 97% of the time. The 3% separation incidence implies that they are very close together. If Purple and Cameo are further apart, the incidence of separation would be greater than 3% -- or, in other words, the chance of Peach daughters resulting from an IB split to Purple and Cameo father would be greater than 3%. How much more I can't guess.

See the Wikipedia page on Genetic Linkage for more information.

 

[Rosa moschata]

A son split both purple and cameo will not guarantee peach daughters. You may breed this male for his entire life without producing a single peach daughter.

True, there is no "guarantee" that it will happen, but I think it's far more likely than you think -- and far more likely that it will occur at some point than that it will never occur, if bred "for his entire life".

I'm going to offer an example with cockatiels. There are a few sex-linked mutations in them -- Cinnamon, Lutino, Pearl, and Sex-Linked Yellow Cheek. In order for any two of these mutations to be visible in the same bird, crossover must have occurred in males which looked normal but were split to both. Today visual combinations of two or three are not very difficult to find. There are genetic calculators which predict the chances of crossover between these mutations based on observations of offspring in controlled breeding.

That the same can't be said right now among peafowl may simply be because not as many people have been trying for it. But as I posted before, if it happened a few times in one year for one breeder, I think it's more likely than you think.

 

[AugeredIn]

True, there is no "guarantee" that it will happen, but I think it's far more likely than you think -- and far more likely that it will occur at some point than that it will never occur, if bred "for his entire life".

I'm going to offer an example with cockatiels. There are a few sex-linked mutations in them -- Cinnamon, Lutino, Pearl, and Sex-Linked Yellow Cheek. In order for any two of these mutations to be visible in the same bird, crossover must have occurred in males which looked normal but were split to both. Today visual combinations of two or three are not very difficult to find. There are genetic calculators which predict the chances of crossover between these mutations based on observations of offspring in controlled breeding.

That the same can't be said right now among peafowl may simply be because not as many people have been trying for it. But as I posted before, if it happened a few times in one year for one breeder, I think it's more likely than you think.

BINGO! But we are now beginning to sense the odds and they are better then you would expect.

Another issue that is skewing the perception is that the split birds and (new term) "double split" birds are hard to separate from the non split birds.

 

[KsKingBee]

A son split both purple and cameo will not guarantee peach daughters. You may breed this male for his entire life without producing a single peach daughter.
Reasonable in the pea industry is defined differently by every person. I get satisfaction from breeding the birds that I want to eventually end up with. I figure my time and cost of raising more than one generation is more reasonable than paying for $2500 for a pair that I could achieve through breeding in less than 8 yrs

Hard to say if I have eight years left.

I appreciate what it takes to raise, maintain, and breed these wonderful birds and can see the value in them. If someone offered me $2500 to care for a pair of birds for eight years I would certainly tell them to * up a rope.

Either way you have to acquire the breeding stock, and by what others here say it sounds like it is an iffy procedure that would be filled with a lot of disappointments. I would rather have and watch the finished product walking about my property than waiting to see IF I could produce them sometime in the future. As an aside, if they produce offspring you can offset the investment.

 

[Peafowlssssssss]

Just got new images for these mysterious hens next to cameo and opal hen.

From left to right, cameo hen, the mysterious hen and opal hen:























Next to opal hen:



Cameo hen in the middle and opal on right:

 

[zazouse]

Mabe a cameo white eye? silver on back ,lots of white like a pied, with the cameo throwed in the mix, not sure if there is such a color but that is what i see when i look at all the different body colors

 

[zazouse]

PS they are very beautiful and in good feather