Campine Chicken thread?

[Wisher1000]

.... and there was a collective, "Huh?"

LOL! Thanks, Tara! Youse so smart!

 

[brrabey]

I've been snowed in for weeks. Started needle felting my girls to pass the time. Here's Soly! Tiny Soly. I just had to share.

 

[abbevilleoz]

.... and there was a collective, "Huh?"

LOL! Thanks, Tara! Youse so smart!

X2. I read over my lunch break trying to interpret her post. No habla e loci....

 

[CanuckBock]

.... and there was a collective, "Huh?"

LOL! Thanks, Tara! Youse so smart!

It's like the sound of a million crickets eh... "Hello? Anybody out there wanna play chicken?"

X2. I read over my lunch break trying to interpret her post. No habla e loci....

Super easy. Chickens are gold or Silver (your Campines come in gold or silver, right?) in the s-series and then all chicken colour patterns are based on the e-series. If you ignore the scary genetic letters...just think of the chicken like making soup.

Two choices...

First off, the s-series...silver or gold bird (natch...yer varieties are those).

Second, the e-series...do you want pork, fish, beef, chicken, veg, etc. as your soup base or MAIN INGREDIENT. The e-series instructs all the other colour genetics on how to act or in the soup example, how to taste. What your broth is in the e-series is going to determine how the pattern is displayed in your male Campines...how well your pelling is going to be wider than the ground colour in various places on your Campines. If your foundations are not right, you are never gonna build yer birds colour pattern correctly.

I showed you what may or may not be the correct chick down to be selecting for to get those lovely bars or pellings as some call them. You want lots of black pigment, so if you choose the eb series in the e-series (the chick down SCREAMS at you what it is) then you can go forward...without the correct BASE (again, think of what flavour you want your chicken soup, the Campine to be) you are doomed to have no patterned tailed males, or poor patterns or even the balance of black to the ground colour will be skewed.

Pelling, broader black banding, autosomal barring...your SOP description says you want a variable width in the coloured parts (black) and they need to be larger in variable widths (pending where on the body the feathers are located) than the gold or silver ground colour.


Basic recipe for Campine breed colour pattern:

ER (for patterned male tail) or eb (if male tail is hen feathered or a modified version)

Pg pencilling

Db (Pg with Db makes the pelling and Henk has conversed with me, the fella that made that chicken calculator and he figures the Db helps too with the width)

Silver (S) or gold (s"+") as per variety.


Henk also advised me in October 2014 (yes, Wisher that's how long ago I mailed you all those photocopies of the Campine data from my personal library! Time flies when having fun, eh) that using eb Brown may give more of a wheaten pattern in the Campines, Chaams and Brakels. Myself, not quite sure what a Wheaten pattern is though...hee hee. He also said that he felt "true transverse penciled breeds are on ER." If this is true, then do you sacrifice the width of the pelling or is as Henk says, the Db takes care of that. I don't have all the answers but I am trying to assist.


My concern is that many may be trying to make the Campine colour pattern on the wrong base of the e-series and it would be the breeders that would know whether it is ER or eb or even something else?

If even some of you could start taking day old chick down photos...nice clear images of the head, side, the body...you could compile some very useful information as a group as these birds age and show you their adult plumage types. By following the chickens from day olds (very informative in letting you KNOW what base your birds are in the e-series) to adults...you learn what right from the start will make the final Campine pattern many of you want. Width of black and patterned tails on the males.


Why am I thinking perhaps eb Brown is the day old base you are wanting...because I have so many breeds myself that begin as that chick down and am seeing a correlation that might solve the dilemma in perfecting the Campine colour pattern too.

Brahmas, Buff and Light....

Bantam Buff Brahma male - See the grey coloured down he hides under his gold feathers?



Bantam Light Brahma male - another example of eb Brown, that grey down screams he has lots of black pigments to make nice
patterns in his feathers with ​

There one small part, I have personal experience breeding a gold and a silver variety in a chicken breed...that requires slate down too.

The SOP colour pattern description of both your Golden and Silver Campines says the undercolour or down is SLATE...that screams your varieties are based on eb Brown!

I just spent a dozen years bantamizing my large fowl Chanteclers and took photos of day olds to adults so I could understand which birds as day olds where the ones that turn into the adults in the varieties I wanted. It sure speeds up selection processing...think on it...day olds, you already would KNOW what e-series or base was correct for your breed. Then you got so many other traits like flop comb in the girls, straight up inthe boys...never mind vigour, fertility, production aspects, disease resistance, temperaments, longevity...phenotype is so minuscule when it comes to all the other wannas.

There are a group of you here on this thread that are obviously willing and able to take photos and post them of your birds...so why not click pics of day olds...and then as they begin growing up and as adults...the resulting day old chick down = this bird as an adult. You would progress as a group by leaps and bounds...so much information there in front of you just begging to be understood and shared. That's my suggestion, take it or leave it.

Here's three MDF Booted Bantam hens...same age but lookit the different expressions of white dotty dots?
Even their ground colour is variable in depth of rich redness​

Some MDFs start out with hardly any white...whereas others are over the top white
You find a balance point​

I do not have your breed or variety, but I have slate legs in my Booteds....

I bred for a line of white feathered dark skinned Booteds to cross into my MDFs for one dose
of recessive white to make the MDF colours POP​

There's that eb Brown slate down like you guys want in your Campines...
​

What I find amusing is that during my Chantecler breedings, I saw juvenile birds that l00ked like Golden Campines...now they never STAYED that way...

Partridge x Buff = Red Chanteclers...now jest change the leg colour to dark and??​

I have Chanteclers that as juveniles looked like your Golden Campines...uncanny how they look like them feather pattern wise!

The bars I see in the juvenile female plumage...in the Partridge Chanteclers becomes pencilled​

Even changes from moult to moult could be useful. They say a pencilled hen expresses her pattern better and better as she ages and changes her suits of feathers. Some use to show barren hens (no eggs, no extra stressors from laying) with rave reviews because their feathers were produced much nicer than laying hens or younger birds...slow and steady oldsters.

​

Are there any keeners on here that keep track of your feathers on your birds in the different strains, ages, individuals?

Hackles and saddles in the male MDF - note the wanted white tipping​

When I had these start popping out of my breedings...

​

I got to learn that I had dominant white in the Partridges (based on White Chanteclers, historically saved by a Quebecer when he crossed what was left of the Albertans with his White Chants to eliminate the duck foot mutation and add vigour back into the lines). By taking photos as the birds aged, I got to understand the phenomena better. Fear comes from the not understanding something. The more you understand it, the better able you can deal with it. Record keeping lets you progress at the speed of light, eh.

Red Pyle male...one dose of dominant white!​

The birds never lie, it is just us humans that have to try and understand what they are trying to tell us...eb Brown or ER Duckwing??

Sometimes we are mystified as to the base the chicken is built on...by not knowing the e-series base...how you ever going to colour your chicken pattern correctly...you are likely doomed from the start without the right correct base to begin with...the foundation for all the colour genetics to be built upon.

What e series base?​

Sometimes all you gotta do to know...Is ruffle up a few feathers

AH HA! eb Brown...dark down = eb!​

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[Wisher1000]

I have a hard time believing it has been that long. I need to go over that stuff with you. Some of it I understand completely, some I think I get, and some is
Greek to me.

Tara, there are many, many pics of day (or three) old Campine chicks in this thread from several breeders. We have discussed the differences in the patterns on the chicks in the past, but I don't think anyone here has the genetic knowledge that we need to use it. I am ALL EARS for this stuff and happy to listen at your knee for as long as you are willing to teach.

 

[CanuckBock]

I have a hard time believing it has been that long. I need to go over that stuff with you. Some of it I understand completely, some I think I get, and some is
Greek to me.

Tara, there are many, many pics of day (or three) old Campine chicks in this thread from several breeders. We have discussed the differences in the patterns on the chicks in the past, but I don't think anyone here has the genetic knowledge that we need to use it. I am ALL EARS for this stuff and happy to listen at your knee for as long as you are willing to teach.

I read to maybe page 7 or 10 last night....but over 100 is gonna kill me. You know that saying, those that can, do and those that can't, teach...I still can and struggle with finding that magical time for the teach part.

In these day old photos (three days, too long sometimes...these dem birdles get dressed pretty quickly, eh), are you following them along to adulthood or? I struggle when the e-series is impure...I am thinking many of us do, pure e-series, we got lots of educated versions in literature to follow along.

I can try my best to decipher the day old chick down, but my forte is what I have here at home where I can put my grubby paws on them and maul them IN HAND to really SEE with them right in front of you... The e-series I am not half bad with are eb Brown, eWh Wheaten, e"+" Duckwing, and whenever it's self-white or self-black--forget it. Both white and black can hide absolutely anything and everything including a kitchen sink (sunk, sank!).

Thankfully, your Campines are silver or gold...both types are magnificent when bred to the SOP!!

If you might tell me what page to go to to view these day olds from breeders? While I lean towards rather having the examples in my bird yard, I do have the extravagant luxury of some colour genetic texts that explain chick down. It will be me also learning right beside you, so you better sit beside me to make sure I don't fall over and crush you...LOL

Having live examples are the c@tz meow!

The markings on feathers can be at either end of the colour scheme...black or white (no pigment)
Nothing screams the most contrast when you have black and you have white!!
​

The genetic commands are what make the colours and patterns...other factors too in play and I will try to mention some of these too, but in a condensed version.

Chantecler standard sized males - buff, red and partridge


Same thing but in the girls...
Red (partridge x buff), buff, and two partridge types on the right side
I double mate partridge, so the red head is the female line, the black head is my male line
​

Know what kind of pattern you are aiming for...study it, decide​

Here's where I tracked some Partridge Chantecler females...

See the juvenile barring?
For the Partis, this then becomes pencillings
So me comparing May 2014 baby feathers to July 2011 feathers,
same birds, leg banded so I could follow the feathers along
over the years, eh


​

I "like" this female's feathers the bestest​

​

Secret to good partridge pencilings in females, juvenile STRAIGHT EVEN barring across the feathers...the genetic potential is there...now can you give the bird the right conditions to prosper and exude those genetic limitations or better them?

I believe in your Campine situations...you want the barring to stay as barring--nice and even, crisp, clean edges, some slightly curved--areas that are V-shaped (my newbiness recalls tails like this??) are possible but straight is preferred over V-shaped...and not necessarily always a straight edged barring as in like in Barred Plymouth Rocks--curves are OK in certain situations...and certainly you don't want the barring to change into the same multi-penciling as seen in my Partridge Chanteclers and Partridge Brahmas...you want autosomal barring (confusing and I gotta learn from YOU what YOU like past what I can see in drawings and in photos of the birds.) Also knowing what is worded is not always something achievable in live birds. Partridge females are wanted three or more pencillings and it is not too often seen without you watching for it and retaining it! Never mind trying to go for more than three pencillings,,,have mercy!

Diamonds in the hackle and saddle of one of our Partridge Chanteclers



His son ​

Some of the markings, the patterns, we want them crisply edged, we want no peppering, no smutt, no uncrisp edging...there are transferrable pattern methodical wants between the varieties.


The SOP for ABA (my copy is from 2005), lists Down Color of Newly Hatched Bantam Chicks - so even here, you have clues as per things like Silver Pencilled and Partridge (Black Breasted Red - the male version of Partis). Do any of the descriptions in the ABA SOP list close to the Silver or Golden Campine? They do say the listing is incomplete and perhaps, a newer version of this SOP has more types? The ABA SOP describes your varieties as "barred as in Silver or Golden Campine Plumage."

ABA SOP 2005, page 192 for Golden Campine variety:
There are gonna be sore heads all round but oh well, nothing ventured, nothing gained. I now need to go back to the APA & ABA SOPs and re-read (and over and over to learn) the requirements of your varieties...this is new to me also and I gotta get my duck ducks in a line too so I can help here and not hinder y'all.

I have already mentioned to you and on my Pear-A-Dice thread ... you can pull a feather and a better or worse one can grow in. There can be red or black check marks that show up to ruin an otherwise perfect feather...due to even the strangest of stressors...the wavy versus barred pattern, the difference of Cuckoo and barring (same gene, different expression)...in say a Cuckoo Marans, the wavy and fuzzy may be due to the day and night time temperature changes...that minute a difference...cold in night, warmer in day time...the feathers growing SO fast (great in an egg laying breed, get back into production quicker and slicker!) that they show changes.

Your feathers can be affected by feed changes, the birds running out of water at a critical time...moulting, pecking order, diseases/illnesses...tons of factors. So we have to be careful too when thinking all this feather talk is only about the genetics. The genetic potential is like the cap on the lid...the full potential can go past the genetic potential but also be held back if you raise the birds and they don't prosper under your care. Feed is a major curtailer of best feathers ever...as is diseases which stress the birds when they should be more able to focus on making the BEST feathers ever. Use to tell our exhibition poultry kids that we could SEE if they were taking good care of the birds...like human finger nails...any setbacks would often show up in the nails and in the birds, in their plumage. You let the birds run out of water on a hot day...the feathers TELL on you...LOL There is alot to be said about keeping birds well and them L00King healthy for it...like an aura of glistening goodness, eh.

I wanna learn and I am going to give it my best shot...but at a distance because "I" do not have your breed at home here. So I have to rely on your input as much as possible to ensure my output is correctomundo for you guys too.

I am handicapped without the dang birdies in my yard, so be nice, eh. I have to catch up to where you already are...with birds there in the flesh and feather.

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[CanuckBock]

See even just in a few minutes...another AH HA...you have curved feathers in the Campines (those henny feathered modified ones!)...oft times you would get a feather marking shaped because of the feather shape on the end of the feather (first part that grows out is the end)...good Plymouth rock barring, straight across, requires a feather blunt ended. Your males have rounded ended feathers so natch...you are going to have some of the BARRING slightly curved.

 

[abbevilleoz]

Hopefully I'll have some newborn pics to post this time next week.

 

[CanuckBock]

Heel low:

So some of the more interesting aspects in the Campines...white earlobes are wanted, dark legs, modified hen feathering, the eye colour is quite specific as dark brown (reddish bay eyes are a DQ with some hints that it was considered potential intro of Hamburg blood to the breed), firm hard feathered, and of course, the upright single comb in the male and the flop over single comb in the female.


I seem to recall something about Dorking blood being introduced to the breed in establishment...or I could be mistaken remembering that?

Also a Chamois or Buff Campine (white where it is black on the gold background) variety was made round about 1924 but never recognized.

A rosecomb variety was out there for a time but again, confusion with the Hamburg was to be avoided and the rosecombs disappeared in around the 1930's even though the British allowed for this comb type up until 1971.


Funny but there is a quote in one of my books

Mr. Bracken in Lewis Wright's New Book of Poultry, 1902:
Interesting because in some texts on breeding exhibition poultry...there are certain characteristics better achieved through double mating.

Comb shape - Single combs in flop combed females and straight combed males.

White earlobes - More often in black feathered breeds, but hey, the black pelling makes one ponder, hmm...lots of black pigment in those birds, eh.

Autosomal barring - More so in the Pencilled Hamburgs but worth noting.

Feather quality - Between the genders, you will oft find the males more profusely feathered and the females in the firm feathered expressions, on their backs and around their bellies and thighs. You can make selections for this expression and keep cockerel and pullet breeder pens.


Here's some kicks at the can on the double mating aspects...like it or hate it, sometimes double mating works and other times, it does not.


Combs - Not sure how much you guys pay attention to this but in the single combs, the male is upright and in some cases, a strong comb in a male will keep on growing and eventually flop over or droop like you see in the females of the breed. In some instances, you just show the young cockerels when their combs are upright and when they flop over, they are not shown any further. Young stocks are shown, older stocks are used for breeding more young'uns by.

I just had to go look up a meaning...new word for me...excrescence! LOL


Not wanted in the male Campine comb...well I guess so!

The comb (and other facial gear like wattles and earlobes) is used in chickens to help exchange excessive heat. Studies done show too much heat in the environment can incite a chicken to grow a big comb and matching wattles/earlobes...heat exchangers. I have paid attention to this quality because of my breed the Chantecler being small facially adorned plus cold weather here can frost bite chickens with large facial gear...small is easier to keep warm from freezing.

So it would seem in the double mating scheme of things, you choose a female Campine with an upright comb for the female side of the cockerel breeder pen and in the pullet breeder pen, you choose a male with a floppy comb for making the exhibition females. Seems logical. Also of note historically speaking, exhibition Leghorn & Minorca males are good to show for only about a month or so after they reach maturity. Then their upright combs flop over and they retire to the breeder regiments having "gone over."

Next item - White earlobes...large white lobed females if bred, may produce males that are over the top and have white in their faces and eye lids, not only their ear lobes. The SOP says that the comb face and wattles are to be bright red with the ear lobes enamel white. Double mating is used where exhibition males are produced (only white in the ear lobes) by breeding smaller white lobed females with the correctly coloured exhibition males. From my own experiences with colour breeding...if you have near identical birds (ducks, geese, chickens, etc.) like a brother and sister--the males almost always are more whiter than the females. One of the reasons why if you DO NOT want white in the earlobes of some breeds (disqualification for many), one is never to use a male that exhibits even a smidgeon of white in his facial skins. A little white in a male shows you that he can throw this to the females...HE tells on himself whereas the female is less white and she can hide that feature. Wanted white or not, a good clue to remember when breeding for certain colourations, wanted or not. Males lean towards expressing more white than females who would otherwise be identical.


Autosomal barring...strange words...not too common a feature...but some do double mate for this feather pattern...I will mention it in case it helps some with Campines though mostly it is suggested for the Pencilled Hamburg. We can harvest bits and pieces, put them in our tool kit and maybe solve problems with the added knowledge! There are two kinds of barring in poultry, the Plymouth Rock kinda barring (cuckoo/barring is gender linked) and the Hamburg barring (finely barred markings made in an assortment of genetic colour recipes). The Silver Pencilled Hamburg male is devoid of markings on his body...his tail is the marked place...so we can ignore the pen wanted for cockerel breeders...the female or pullet breeders, she looks like the Campines to me in the female version--albeit HER tail markings are just an extension of the body width of the barring--much more the same width of barring compared to the ground colour...unlike in the female version of the Campine where her tail black barring is wider than the ground colour...more wavy than barred straight across, too.

So the pullet breeders (to make females to show) consists of males that are hen feathered with identical markings as per the show females (duh...if he is hen feathered, then naturally his markings will be feminine on the girl type feathers he possesses).

Now laugh all you want but I have used male Chanteclers that are shaped somewhat like females to make good female Chanteclers...yes, hilarious but true. Boy that looks like he's a girl in shape.

Female shaped MALE​

Male shaped MALE


Male shaped MALE but tail carriage is too extreme for the breed SOP​

Lastly in my post here...Feather quality in the Campine is that it is a hard firm feathered breed. They look less heavy than they really are because the firm feather is not bulky...I have had birds like that, you go to pick them up and WOW...heavy bird but firm feathers make them look surprisingly less big until you weigh them in hand or on a scale.

Firm feather or hard feather...well this is nice because to express a nice clear pattern, the firm feathers display sharp markings and good contrast. If you think of the Silkie in the Partridge variety...there is no crispness and defined pattern...soft = fuzzy. Firm = well defined markings...usually!

In the Chanteclers, the unrecognized variety of the self-buffs, the plumage is often too soft...soft like a Buff Orpington. So over the years, I started with this...

Chantelle - my first self buff Chantecler standard sized female​

And while I still have miscolours in the tail (buff should be even and not patchy--right even to the very down and without other colours in it), the black mismarkings are now often a blue...black diluted to blue...har har. Sometimes I am torn between the blue being a white or?

Blue Tailed Buff standard Chant -
Remove the one dose of blue dilution and you got a BLACK tailed buff, eh!

See the firmer feather I have put into this self-Buff Standard Chantecler?
Still a LONG way to go to where I wanna see the variety, but firmer feather improvement
Miscolour in tail--is it white/is it blue?...all I know is that it is not a clean self-buff...shafting too.



Dec 26, 2016 - Chants with firmer feather, still battling shafting & miscolours...
not ready to throw baby out with bath water tho...got so many qualities I adore!



Same gal, as a pullet​

So what I can see in the Campines is if you maintain the firmer feathers, avoid going too soft...by choosing firmer feathered birds...your patterns in Silver and Golden will continue to be crisp and clear. Now granted a poofy soft feathered chicken can keep itself warmer in winter, more insulation in summer...but then you would sacrifice that clean crisp very clear marked pattern I so love to see in the two varieties! So I guess it is a balancing act then...you want the bird to be weather resistant with abilities to withstand summers and winters (if cold and if hot--they stay midway and comfortable)...but a nice pattern on a firm feather is still eye candy treats.

For show Campine females, choose pullet breeder males that still have the firm feather but less quantity of feathers than their male show counterparts--these males can look like they have legs too long because they lack the show males overall number of feathers. Males in firmer feathered breeds tend to be shown with more profuse numbers of feathers. The cockerel breeder girls to mate to the show males have themselves more feathers on their backs and look too large when compared to their show female counterparts. So show girls are trimmer/tighter looking feather wise and the cockerel breeder girls are fuller in feathers so their sons can be shown with more feathers but still firm ones.

Usually the girl birds (although the Campine is suppose to be,,,,suppose to be a non-setter HA!) are more soft feathered to set on egg clutches and brood and raise chicks better.


So that be my bit, bat, bite...

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

 

[Wisher1000]

Tadaa!

Last weekend my staggered hatch number 2 delivered an extra chick! Huray.

However, it's quite white, I think. Any opinions?

In these pictures the chick is 2 days old.
Fourth picture is my campine chick from hatch nr one at 9 days old.

hooray, all three silver campine eggs that were originally set have hatched!!

here are the first two, the other one only hatched about 15 minutes ago, so is still fluffing up in the incubator...

yay!

Hey Drieslag, remember those white Campine chicks you showed us? Well, I have gotten some in my batch as well!


The two with green on them are the pure Silver Campines, the rest are 3/4 Campine, and one quarter EE.

Here are some of the oddly white ones



These are more typical...



Well, green is not typical!

These last two were marked with green food coloring so I could identify them as the only two pure ones. With a bit of tissue on the end of a stick, and a drop of food coloring, I can mark them without opening the hatcher (through a vent hole.) Just as they open the egg, I dab them so I can tell them apart from the others. Once they are all dry and are moved to the brooder, I will toe punch everyone, but these two will have their own identifying punches.

I changed the plan on tracking after this post and did keep up with which ones these were, but I didn't take pics and eventually lost track. I will do better with the next group.

i've just hatched four more silver campines, and added them to the brooder with the three two-week-olds (plus three 2-week-old swedish crosses) -- haven't taken a picture of all the new babies yet, but here are a couple of snaps:


the two-week-olds, peeking out from under their ecoglow


one of the new babies (center) ventures out to explore with the big kids -- the others are all sleeping under the warmth.

with the three 2-week-olds, i've noticed that two have quite long/grown-in wing feathers already, while the third's feathers are much shorter/less developed -- any sense of which might be which gender?

Quote:

These are some of my SC chicks. Your chicks seem to have a much lighter background, but there would be individual differences.

These represent what I think of as "typical" Silver Campine chicks.

just got home and took some quick pictures.
here are my 3 days old whitish and other Danish silver campine chicks
+ a 2 weeks old US silver campine chick (cockerel?)

here some more pics of my white campine chicks

versus the brown ones


BIG BIG difference, no?

what is right, what is wrong? is there a right, is there a wrong?

Quote:

Quote:
Tara, Here are some of the chick pics I found in this thread. As you can see, there is a lot of variety indicating a lot of genetic differences. I PERSONALLY have never tracked a chick from down to adult plumage, but you can bet your fanny I will this year. Lots of pics and proper identification on all. I think I will hatch fewer this year to make it easier to manage. I can't wait to decipher the genetics of my birds (with your help, I hope.)