Can an Ayam Cemani have a white tongue and still be worth alot of $$$?

[melamb13]

True, true, true, BUT.... the way you phrased the initial question didn't give most of us (ok, I shouldn't say that, despite many of the previous posts)... didn't give me the impression that your mindset was in the right place to become a successful Ayam Cemani breeder. It gave me the impression that you acquired a rare bird with an obvious fault, a bird that a good breeder had the judgement to cull, and you are wondering if you lucked into a fortune. That mindset, unfortunately, is the path to the avian equivalent of a puppy mill, foisting poor quality "purebreds" off on an unsuspecting public, thinking only of the money you can make, not of the need to develop a bird to the breed standard.

Now, if you had asked if an Ayam Cemani hen with a white tongue had the potential to be the foundation bird of your flock, knowing that it will take years of selection, culling, hard lessons learned, reaching out to mentors, endless record keeping, and lots of financial investment without immediate return before you can even develop the judgement to become a good breeder of excellent stock, worthy of being "worth a lot of $$$," then I'd be the most encouraging person you ever met, right up there with GitaBooks. But that's not the question you asked, so that's not the response you got from me. If I misinterpreted your intent, then my apologies, as I can only respond to what you have written, not what you may have intended to communicate.

Great response, and I agree that if the culling is harsh and consistent in time it will be as improved as it can be from the starting stock. Does anyone know if the original breeds from their homeland may have the traits of the original poster's bird? This bird is very uncommon and rare, yet there seem to be some "officials" ready to "educate." Improving the breed would be pointless if all were perfect to start with... Just my 2¢.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Quote:
Personally, I know almost nothing about the specifics of the breed, and totally based my answer off the way the question was asked, which I found somewhat offensive (although I realize that that may have been quite unintentional, just poor communication). I got the impression from some of the other responses that a white tongue may be quite difficult to breed out, and later wondered if my second paragraph may not have applied to this specific situation, but I honestly don't know. I breed Red Dorkings, which is a rare breed with few numbers and no perfect examples to use as your foundation stock. Actually, there are even few "good" examples to use as foundation stock, so I started with birds of so-so quality and am breeding them up, slaughtering all my culls at this stage. So for me, the idea of asking if a rare bird with an obvious flaw is "worth a lot of $$$" shows either a tremendous naivety about the realities of breeding (and that's ok, we were all there once!!), or a somewhat malicious intent as to how the offspring of the bird would be marketed, promoting the "rare" title above the need for quality. I suspect that applies to all rare breeds, regardless of the details about how easy a specific trait can be corrected.

 

[melamb13]

Personally, I know almost nothing about the specifics of the breed, and totally based my answer off the way the question was asked, which I found somewhat offensive (although I realize that that may have been quite unintentional, just poor communication). I got the impression from some of the other responses that a white tongue may be quite difficult to breed out, and later wondered if my second paragraph may not have applied to this specific situation, but I honestly don't know. I breed Red Dorkings, which is a rare breed with few numbers and no perfect examples to use as your foundation stock. Actually, there are even few "good" examples to use as foundation stock, so I started with birds of so-so quality and am breeding them up, slaughtering all my culls at this stage. So for me, the idea of asking if a rare bird with an obvious flaw is "worth a lot of $$$" shows either a tremendous naivety about the realities of breeding (and that's ok, we were all there once!!), or a somewhat malicious intent as to how the offspring of the bird would be marketed, promoting the "rare" title above the need for quality. I suspect that applies to all rare breeds, regardless of the details about how easy a specific trait can be corrected.

Ok, I understand what you were trying to state. I wasn't calling you out directly, I was just stating what I've come to see a lot on some posts about discouraging someone from starting with a flaw and trying to improve the breed. ACs are very rare and hard to come by perfect specimens, and I took the posters meaning of a lot of $$$ to mean something different. I don't see why she can't start with that hen and cull very stringently until she gets a line with better traits. That's all I was trying to state. In the long run if she is diligent and strict with culling she should have a line that carries the AC traits that we understand to be true. If that is where she ends up, then in fact the starter hen would have been worth a good deal. I agree that she shouldn't try to get the kind of money for her hen with an such a trait as a white tongue. No offense meant on my part, I was talking in general.

Regards.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Quote:
Oh, don't worry melamb13. I didn't think you were "calling me out" at all. I think you and I are really on the same page, just stating it in different ways. No offense taken at all.

 

[thechxwhisperer]

Hey everyone, sorry if I caused any arguments. I just wanted to know if the breed could improve, even if my hen has a white tongue. I wasn't even going to sell the hen. I just like playing around with different breeds. I love to see little chicks hatch and am always so excited when I see what their coloration is! Trying to breed a perfect AC would just be too much for me. I am not very experienced and I can't stand the thought of culling a breed until I get perfection. it's just not me. It's great for a lot of you out there and you understand how to breed chickens to perfection, even if you have to cull a few birds along the way. Thank you all for giving me different opinions and answers!

 

[GitaBooks]

Hey everyone, sorry if I caused any arguments. I just wanted to know if the breed could improve, even if my hen has a white tongue. I wasn't even going to sell the hen. I just like playing around with different breeds. I love to see little chicks hatch and am always so excited when I see what their coloration is! Trying to breed a perfect AC would just be too much for me. I am not very experienced and I can't stand the thought of culling a breed until I get perfection. it's just not me. It's great for a lot of you out there and you understand how to breed chickens to perfection, even if you have to cull a few birds along the way. Thank you all for giving me different opinions and answers!

Don't worry. I learned some useful things from this, so it helped.

I'm not that great at selective breeding either, it takes a lot of dedication. That's why I like supporting those breeders who have the patience (I don't) by buying their birds just to add some variety into the flock.

 

[Brat Flock]

I was blessed to add two of these great birds to my flock today. They are super pretty and a neat addition to my backyard flock however mine have the same white tongue and one has light toenails. I was thrilled to actually get a pair of these guys but I agree with most everyone else... I would NOT breed them. Strong foundations are vital to breeding, and I am sure we have all been frustrated by crosses advertised to be something they are not...

 

[GitaBooks]

I was blessed to add two of these great birds to my flock today. They are super pretty and a neat addition to my backyard flock however mine have the same white tongue and one has light toenails. I was thrilled to actually get a pair of these guys but I agree with most everyone else... I would NOT breed them. Strong foundations are vital to breeding, and I am sure we have all been frustrated by crosses advertised to be something they are not...

That is a pretty bird.

 

[Brat Flock]

Thank you! I was SO excited to bring these into my backyard flock!

 

[juleshen]

Just wondering I am in awe of these beautiful birds. If a chick has white/clear claws can the colour change to black as it gets older, same question relates to tongues do they darken or are they born with black tongues?