Cap and Trade Bill?? What the heck is it?

[warmfuzzies]

Come on guys, the OP had a legitement question (even if I cant type tonight...)

Lets give them opinions without debating each other, and then let them make a decision on their own! Also helpful, would be to give links to further our case, instead of arguing on here.

 

[shelleyd2008]

Quote:
If you'd like to counter any of my points, please feel free. I dislike seeing the same falsehoods repeated over and over again. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms without resorting to untruths. But please don't direct your ire at me simply because I disagree with your views, as all of the statements I responded to were much in the same vein as the ones I made. I don't think we should be engaging in double standards here.

And if your problem was my tic tac statement, I'll clarify.

Any change, better or worse, would 'destroy the US as we know it'. That kind of statement is a pure logical fallacy.

The earth also has gravity where the moon does not. What keeps it from returning to our atmosphere?

Umm....The moon does have gravity. And rockets don't exactly use fossil fuels.​

I don't have any 'views', I was simply wondering what this bill was. I hadn't heard of it before last night.

I have views on global warming, polution, and all that jazz, but I'd like to see this thread kept open, so I'm keeping them to myself. There is no reason to 'call out' another poster directly, just state your piece and move on

 

[Chicksdigit]

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Wow I thought I was going to see a new Chicken plucker or something. But alas it was a Blog. Ok so this Cap in trade thing is something I don't want to deal with if it is going to Double my Electric bill.

Now who is getting a new Golf Cart with the new Golf Cart Stimulus package?

 

[shelleyd2008]

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Thank you, exactly my point. No need to argue "you're wrong and I'm right', it's silly, and unnecessary. Just play nice

 

[shelleyd2008]

Quote:
Wow I thought I was going to see a new Chicken plucker or something. But alas it was a Blog. Ok so this Cap in trade thing is something I don't want to deal with if it is going to Double my Electric bill.

Now who is getting a new Golf Cart with the new Golf Cart Stimulus package?

I wish! I'm about to revert to the horse-and-buggy myself!

 

[ivan3]

warmfuzzies wrote: Come on guys, the OP had a legitement question (even if I cant type tonight...)

Lets give them opinions without debating each other, and then let them make a decision on their own! Also helpful, would be to give links to further our case, instead of arguing on here.

Thank you, warmfuzzies. That my golf swings might carry the ball 6 times as far on the moon seems moot.

Here are a few items to consider: No matter how we rearrange the energy sources on the board and go all Six Sigma/zero defects (ala Carter's efficiency program) keeping use to a minimum, we'll still need another terawatt of electricity in the next couple decades. There is only one method of producing sufficient baseline power that is carbon neutral (want hydrogen/electric cars?) and that is nuclear. We have excellent national labs, too bad we have so many high school dropouts (biggest threat to our survival as a Constitutional Republic) and neo-luddites.

Here are some quotes and the sources (don't need to bury unreprocessed fuel):

GE-Hitachi, for example, is developing a fast reactor called Prism that would take spent fuel or weapons waste, sitting in storage today, and use nearly all of it as fuel, leaving little waste. What's left would also be less radioactive than current waste, and would need to be stored for hundreds of years instead of thousands of years, scientists say. Fast reactors are able to unlock energy in waste because they can burn plutonium, neptunium and other materials that Generation II and Generation III reactors leave behind.

GE-Hitachi estimates there's enough energy sitting in nuclear storage sites in the U.S. to completely meet the nation's energy needs for 70 years, if fast reactors were used to convert waste into electricity.

From: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204409904574350342705855178.html
(the Navy reprocessed fuel up in Idaho during the Cold War using an ealier iteration of same technology).

Once we have the juice then a method such as this might come in handy:

Currently, the principal market for the Green Freedom production concept is fuel for vehicles and aircraft.

At the heart of the technology is a new process for extracting carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and making it available for fuel production using a new form of electrochemical separation. By integrating this electrochemical process with existing technology, researchers have developed a new, practical approach to producing fuels and organic chemicals that permits continued use of existing industrial and transportation infrastructure. Fuel production is driven by carbon-neutral power.

"Our concept enhances U.S. energy and material security by reducing dependence on imported oil. Initial system and economic analyses indicate that the prices of Green Freedom commodities would be either comparable to the current market or competitive with those of other carbon-neutral, alternative technologies currently being considered," said F. Jeffrey Martin of the Laboratory's Decisions Applications Division, principal investigator on the project

From: http://www.lanl.gov/news/index.php/fuseaction/home.story/story_id/12554 (still being funded, thank goodness)
More info: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/19/science/19carb.html

I'm much more concerned about getting our nation off of the international energy procurement grid than I am about climatological hypotheses. However, it will probably take a big rise in price per kilowatt hour and $7.00 gal. gas to actually move the parade along (hope we don't end up as the folks that get to sweep up after the elephants).

Pertinent quote from the article cited in my previous post:

There is one group that is unequivocally doing well thanks to cap and trade: energy lobbyists. More than $200 million was spent in the first half of ’09 alone on lobbying the government over the climate bill​

 

[jafo]

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That's a good way to explain it. Thank you.

I don't mean to offend or belittle anyone, but I am a green business owner and I am working on my Masters in geology/environmental science. I could be working for an oil ocmpany if I wanted to, but morally I cannot. (Well- my area of concentration is Fluvial Geomorphology so they might not want me) It's my job to know as much about environmental issues as possible. I get my information from universities- not fox news. I try to explain using Discovery Channel laymens terms, but that obviously didn't work.
IMHO "Cap and Trade" is not perfect- but it's a START.

And for those of you that don't "believe" in climate change, all I have to say to you is "Did Adam and Eve have bellybuttons?"

Brainwashed. I used to work at a very large computer chip plant in this Northeast. Here in the Great Northeast they follow such BS programs. If (and this happened) the PC plant is only allowed 1000 "credits" to POLLUTE THE AIR WE BREATHE, and they KNOW they're gonna use 20 times more, the carpet the area with thier big money looking for Mrs Smith, who owns a daycare (still,,,,a business, every business is allocated X amount of crcedits) and buy her 975 credits she had'nt used, same for the tire shop, the greenhouse,the phone company, and if possible, the little girl on the street with a lemonade stand. This PC company won a "CLEAN AIR AWARD". Every day they used to have a crew to pick up dead birds on the roof. They removed HAZARDOUS WASTE stickers from the stacks in one particular area, when the governor (at the time) toured the "plant" BECAUSE of the "award" Wake up peeple. If you think your power bills will go down under this administration, or any other in the future, you're living in a fantasy world. Cap and Trade is a very bad deal for the American People. A great deal for Corporate America. Seek the Truth, and ye shall find it. Follow the money.

 

[Royd]

I, hereby, now officially coin the phrase, "The OMG Generation".

This is the essence of the Cap and Trade tax, and much of the discussion, in this thread.

Where and when did we turn the corner, from living and enjoying life, as it came at us, to cowering, in fear, at invisible, yet to be, boogie men?
All of us, now, spend our lives, walking on eggshells, because someone is offended, or pretends to be, by something we say or do...Maybe, this should have its own thread.

 

[ijon1]

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I would just like to see people stand up.

 

[deb1]

After having participated in many discussions on other forums, I have to admit to being a bit surprised that anyone would think that this thread was anything but polite. I have been enjoying how everyone can state their own opinion without getting angry or upset. Now I am reading others' comments that this thread is just too contentious.

I think that everyone has been very nice on this thread.

People, the mods haven't closed this thread yet because there is no reason to. You are all being very well behaved for a political thread.

Now carry on. I am learning a lot more about Cap and Trade then I have from the news.