Cesar millan v. clicker training

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

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I agree with you. Often if people raised their dogs the way we do there would be little need for corrections later on in the dogs training life. However, what we are speaking about here is a lifestyle versus just a part of someone's life. You and I are similar in that our dogs are part of our lifestyles not just our lives. Most people who have a dog don't have that kind of time or knowledge or interest to train a dog the way it could be trained.

 

[Rin]

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Not me, but then I wasn't there and could not study the dog beforehand. Cesar was and likely did.

"lifting the paw is a sign of lunging"? Yea, if he says so.

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Dogs contain 99.9% of the same genetic material that a wolf has. They are far more wolf than you think they are. What dogs clearly aren't, is people and should not be treated as one.

Actually it's just 99% . And humans and chimps share 96% but are humans the same exact things as chimps? We're talking an animal thats living in your house and has bred long before you were here to be able to be kept in your house not something you'd find in the forest taking down deer naturally.

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Ever watch wolves at a kill? They do this stuff at every meal. Dominance is reasserted over and over again - at every kill - every mating attempt - every challenge to authority. You should read up on wolves a bit more.

Actually no they don't. Packs in the wild are mostly only comprised of an alpha male and female and the rest are their pups. The notion that they are so aggressive and heavy handed is based on captive wolves which tend to be completely unrelated wolves tossed in with each other in a situation where they can't split off to make their own packs.

I love BBC, anyone else here watch the thing on dogs where they discovered that dogs are even the only domestic animal that has learned to stare at your right(?) eye as that is the side of your face that shows your true emotion despite it not being something dogs do themselves(with other dogs). Then they also selectively bred foxes for temperament and almost immediately the ones they bred for friendly were being born with curled over tails and longer floppier ears, it was very interesting.

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Sorry, but most breeds were developed to perform tasks. They selected for those that did the tasks best. It had nothing to do with a heavy hand or any other training method. Selection was made according to which dogs excelled at the task. If the task was bull baiting or dog fighting, they simply picked the ones that could be made to excel at them.

And because they were bred to do those things and excel at them entails they don't require a heavy hand at these things - try to teach a wolf to herd your goat and see what happens and also before they were bred for specific tasks they were likely bred to be a companion and protection first above all else. I imagine cart pulling and retrieving downed ducks and bull baiting came later when carts and guns were invented and bulls were even kept.

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You're killing your credibility. Haven't you seen the reunion shows, where most of the dogs he worked with come onto one show and get together in one area? They are all together, getting along great, unlike before Cesar helped instruct the owners what to do. These reunions have happened a year or two after he saw some of the dogs last. The owners he has worked with seem pretty happy, for the most part, with the results down the road. Your theory is hogwash.

Well fine then, I missed those I stopped watching it after a while because it just infuriated me to watch the show making money off that(I still eyeroll at the Caesar Milan collars that are about $2 more than the regular sort just because his photo is on the cardboard every time I head to petco). Question though did they bring on any of their failures to the reunion shows because you know there would always be some. Especially in the case of the family that tried to sue for defamation, granted I don't think they'd want that specific family back.


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That one will keep me laughing all night. You've got to be joking!

Why? He said it himself and he can't get awards as one either - seeing as he isn't.
And what really tops it off is he's sexist. To quote the Times -

In one of the outtakes included in the four-DVD set of the first season of ''Dog Whisperer,'' Mr. Millan explains that a woman is ''the only species that is wired different from the rest.'' And a ''woman always applies affection before discipline,'' he says. ''Man applies discipline then affection, so we're more psychological than emotional. All animals follow dominant leaders; they don't follow lovable leaders.''

So essentially women aren't capable of being pack leaders. But yes you should read the article;
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=950CE3DF1E3EF932A0575BC0A9609C8B63

An interesting read, really.​

 

[OccamsTazer]

In his first book he talks about how he used to have some very atavistic and sexist worldviews. His wife dumped his lousy butt until he got his act together.

He is very encouraging and supportive of women being in positions of power, he says so in many ways in his writing and in his actions.
So, while he may stick his foot in his mouth, he's not a misogynist at all!

 

[Rin]

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I never meant he hated women or had strong contempt for them. He just on some level seems to think they are inferior even if it's just in passing. Good for his wife though, not tolerating that bull.

Man got off topic? D:

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
THANK you. Someone said it.

"Naturally aggressive", give me a break - Cotton was CLEARLY just crated WAY too long and gave CLEAR signals of wanting to play that he completely misread. Dogs bark and growl when they are EXCITED (try watching puppies at play). If they are being aggressive you will see all their teeth and tail stiff and ears flat on their head. Being crated all the time causes frustration and frustration causes aggressive behavior. He was RIGHT with the slow opening of the crate door but if he patiently kept at JUST THAT eventually the dog would sit and wait for it to be opened. He didn't NEED to jump to an aggressive dominant gesture making what is a friendly but frustrated dog FEARFUL and so uncertain what was wanted. I guarantee the dog went right back to that behavior after he left because all it learned was that it's crate was a BAD PLACE where it was not only caged too much but forced now into a submissive position in. My dogs are APPROPRIATELY crate trained and view it as a safe place to go to get AWAY from things that scare them. He did the opposite making it an even scarier place and I guarantee he's going to bite the next person to callously shove him in it out of fear.
Can anyone else see what he seveeerely misinterpreted once he got the dog out? A certain lil paw? Lifting a paw is NOT a gesture of going AFTER someone and never has been and never will be. The ONLY time i'd ever seen a dog do so was a gesture of "please", heck. My girl does it juuust before she flops over to give me her belly. Hell if she was going to go after someone shed PICK one STARE at them raise her hackles and pull at the lead. None of which it was doing it was just... scared and confused and SO not used to being walked on a lead even.

I disagree that the dog was "wanting to play". Cotton wanted out, yes, but his behavior was not that of a dog inviting play from a person. Cotton was being a brat, mild aggression and clearly a learned behavior. I am going to assume here that the owners labled it as aggression and then rewarded the behavior and let Cotton "win" by moving away and/or letting him out immediately because they were nervous of his bratty growling and tantrum.

He wanted out of the crate and was doing what he has learned to do by learned aggressive behavior.

The paw in the air is a common appeasement and, sometimes, avoidance posture. Notice the paw that was in the air was the one closes to Cesar. I think it was both appeasment and avoidance in this case as Cotton clearly realized that Cesar wasn't going to respond the way others did to his behavior and avoidance in that he could move away quickly if given the chance. The raised paw in appeasment comes from the dog partially "flopping" over as a submissive dog will when confronted by a more confident dog. Basically it is a frozen submissive flop, but shows mistrust and worry in that he doesn't go on his side the entirely. The dog really didn't know what to do and therefore his body language was mixed, unsure.

As an added note WOLVES ARE NOT DOGS AND DOGS ARE NOT WOLVES. Not only do wolves RARELY do this crap to pack members but wolves SEEKING to be alpha will kill the "old" alpha to take over sometimes (There was a pack where a female killed her own father to take over the role of alpha). Wolves are WILD ANIMALS. Your dog, is not and even THEN wolves do LESS harassing of pack members than Caesar demonstrates on his show. This is like using lions for determining how exactly to treat a house cat. Dogs are domesticated animals bred for centuries NOT to require a heavy hand. They are in environments NOTHING like where wolves are and are being watched over and raised by humans - not wolves. Quit using wolves as a reason to bully a dog. My theory is Caesar is just for show because I have seen what that "training" does to dogs and I guarantee most of them are dead now after being too aggressive as aggression is what they learned. Hell, there was one family that tried to sue the show I recall for mis-representing(exaggerating) their case and not even HELPING in the end. It was the episode where he rolled the small muzzled dog on its back and pinned it for about 10 mins despite the owners repeatedly telling Caesar the last trainer they used did the SAME THING and it didn't help in the BG. Sure the owners were happy at the end of the episode but the dog was just as bad after the crew got what they wanted and left.

I agree with you that dogs are not wolves, in fact they are far from it and they should be looked at as Canine and NOT a Lupine. Just as we are Primates but not Gorillas. Some what same social hierarchy but very different enviroment. You don't go learn how to discipline your child by watching Jane Goodall and her chimps.

Aggression in wolves as in dogs is very ritualized. Dogs often have aggressive responses that seem really gnarly but in reality both parties come away without so much as a puncture. That is because, even in the midst of a fight, often the aggression is a ritual necessary for the balance of the relationship, not to actually to cause damage, bu to reinforce the relationship. Everything about dog to dog interaction is ritual and only when one of the dogs misreads or acts innappropriately does the fight become serious. If there is an imbalance or ignorance in one of the dogs that is when things become dangerous.

I love Victoria. She teaches a more humane way and has the SAME "duh" tips such as exercise and she gets some of the dumbest owners - ones that feed their dogs TEA and sweets, crate them all day and wonder why they are so crazed. BUT she still teaches not just NILIF but how to REDIRECT bad behaviors without abuse. She even points out where the owners are going wrong and teaches them to be aware of it. Like one couple had a dog that they didn't want on the couch or bed or furniture... they weren't aware they were letting him on the couch with them sometimes. So the dog had no clue if it was or wasn't allowed as the owners gave mixed signals. In the end they decided no not allowed and the dog was not going back up. OH and she actually did episodes where she REVISITED these homes showing indeed her methods worked. Maybe not perfectly as the owners liked to slip up, but the stuff they STUCK WITH worked. But she still had an approach that was meant to build the owner and dogs confidence together. So simply dropping your dog off at a trainer that trains this way or even clicker training isn't going to cut it ever. If they aren't working - you should be there doing them with your dog so both of you have confidence in each other.

One final note Caesar is NOT a dog trainer. Victoria IS and she has awards to prove it. He has a warning on his show not to do what he does for a REASON. It might get you maimed or even killed doing the things he does. So yes, strong feelings here.

I have watched her shows for a while on and off. I see some really good things about her and also seem some not so great things about the information and methods she uses. I agree, to, that she is a trainer. And as I have said before on this thread Cesar is not. I still think that Cesar has some very good information out there and I like that he educates people on the need for balance and exercise. Too many people don't reallize that a dog should be treated as a dog. And many people also don't realize what exericise can do for their dogs physical, but more importantly, mental well being.​

 

[chickenlittle1980]

I have lurked on this thread for a while...... One thing I know about dog people is that we are nutts!!! And that everybody thinks they are right and the rest of the world is wrong as far as ways of dog training...... I have been stabed in the back and feed to the wolves by "dog people" I have clickers ....... e collars (tar and feather me) choke collars pinch collars etc..........Like i said stabed in the back feed to the wolves I will keep my mouth shut!

 

[Rin]

Quote:
THANK you. Someone said it.

"Naturally aggressive", give me a break - Cotton was CLEARLY just crated WAY too long and gave CLEAR signals of wanting to play that he completely misread. Dogs bark and growl when they are EXCITED (try watching puppies at play). If they are being aggressive you will see all their teeth and tail stiff and ears flat on their head. Being crated all the time causes frustration and frustration causes aggressive behavior. He was RIGHT with the slow opening of the crate door but if he patiently kept at JUST THAT eventually the dog would sit and wait for it to be opened. He didn't NEED to jump to an aggressive dominant gesture making what is a friendly but frustrated dog FEARFUL and so uncertain what was wanted. I guarantee the dog went right back to that behavior after he left because all it learned was that it's crate was a BAD PLACE where it was not only caged too much but forced now into a submissive position in. My dogs are APPROPRIATELY crate trained and view it as a safe place to go to get AWAY from things that scare them. He did the opposite making it an even scarier place and I guarantee he's going to bite the next person to callously shove him in it out of fear.
Can anyone else see what he seveeerely misinterpreted once he got the dog out? A certain lil paw? Lifting a paw is NOT a gesture of going AFTER someone and never has been and never will be. The ONLY time i'd ever seen a dog do so was a gesture of "please", heck. My girl does it juuust before she flops over to give me her belly. Hell if she was going to go after someone shed PICK one STARE at them raise her hackles and pull at the lead. None of which it was doing it was just... scared and confused and SO not used to being walked on a lead even.

I disagree that the dog was "wanting to play". Cotton wanted out, yes, but his behavior was not that of a dog inviting play from a person. Cotton was being a brat, mild aggression and clearly a learned behavior. I am going to assume here that the owners labled it as aggression and then rewarded the behavior and let Cotton "win" by moving away and/or letting him out immediately because they were nervous of his bratty growling and tantrum.

He wanted out of the crate and was doing what he has learned to do by learned aggressive behavior.

The paw in the air is a common appeasement and, sometimes, avoidance posture. Notice the paw that was in the air was the one closes to Cesar. I think it was both appeasment and avoidance in this case as Cotton clearly realized that Cesar wasn't going to respond the way others did to his behavior and avoidance in that he could move away quickly if given the chance. The raised paw in appeasment comes from the dog partially "flopping" over as a submissive dog will when confronted by a more confident dog. Basically it is a frozen submissive flop, but shows mistrust and worry in that he doesn't go on his side the entirely. The dog really didn't know what to do and therefore his body language was mixed, unsure.

As an added note WOLVES ARE NOT DOGS AND DOGS ARE NOT WOLVES. Not only do wolves RARELY do this crap to pack members but wolves SEEKING to be alpha will kill the "old" alpha to take over sometimes (There was a pack where a female killed her own father to take over the role of alpha). Wolves are WILD ANIMALS. Your dog, is not and even THEN wolves do LESS harassing of pack members than Caesar demonstrates on his show. This is like using lions for determining how exactly to treat a house cat. Dogs are domesticated animals bred for centuries NOT to require a heavy hand. They are in environments NOTHING like where wolves are and are being watched over and raised by humans - not wolves. Quit using wolves as a reason to bully a dog. My theory is Caesar is just for show because I have seen what that "training" does to dogs and I guarantee most of them are dead now after being too aggressive as aggression is what they learned. Hell, there was one family that tried to sue the show I recall for mis-representing(exaggerating) their case and not even HELPING in the end. It was the episode where he rolled the small muzzled dog on its back and pinned it for about 10 mins despite the owners repeatedly telling Caesar the last trainer they used did the SAME THING and it didn't help in the BG. Sure the owners were happy at the end of the episode but the dog was just as bad after the crew got what they wanted and left.

I agree with you that dogs are not wolves, in fact they are far from it and they should be looked at as Canine and NOT a Lupine. Just as we are Primates but not Gorillas. Some what same social hierarchy but very different enviroment. You don't go learn how to discipline your child by watching Jane Goodall and her chimps.

Aggression in wolves as in dogs is very ritualized. Dogs often have aggressive responses that seem really gnarly but in reality both parties come away without so much as a puncture. That is because, even in the midst of a fight, often the aggression is a ritual necessary for the balance of the relationship, not to actually to cause damage, bu to reinforce the relationship. Everything about dog to dog interaction is ritual and only when one of the dogs misreads or acts innappropriately does the fight become serious. If there is an imbalance or ignorance in one of the dogs that is when things become dangerous.

I love Victoria. She teaches a more humane way and has the SAME "duh" tips such as exercise and she gets some of the dumbest owners - ones that feed their dogs TEA and sweets, crate them all day and wonder why they are so crazed. BUT she still teaches not just NILIF but how to REDIRECT bad behaviors without abuse. She even points out where the owners are going wrong and teaches them to be aware of it. Like one couple had a dog that they didn't want on the couch or bed or furniture... they weren't aware they were letting him on the couch with them sometimes. So the dog had no clue if it was or wasn't allowed as the owners gave mixed signals. In the end they decided no not allowed and the dog was not going back up. OH and she actually did episodes where she REVISITED these homes showing indeed her methods worked. Maybe not perfectly as the owners liked to slip up, but the stuff they STUCK WITH worked. But she still had an approach that was meant to build the owner and dogs confidence together. So simply dropping your dog off at a trainer that trains this way or even clicker training isn't going to cut it ever. If they aren't working - you should be there doing them with your dog so both of you have confidence in each other.

One final note Caesar is NOT a dog trainer. Victoria IS and she has awards to prove it. He has a warning on his show not to do what he does for a REASON. It might get you maimed or even killed doing the things he does. So yes, strong feelings here.

I have watched her shows for a while on and off. I see some really good things about her and also seem some not so great things about the information and methods she uses. I agree, to, that she is a trainer. And as I have said before on this thread Cesar is not. I still think that Cesar has some very good information out there and I like that he educates people on the need for balance and exercise. Too many people don't reallize that a dog should be treated as a dog. And many people also don't realize what exericise can do for their dogs physical, but more importantly, mental well being.​

That is sorta what I meant about Cotton. Not so much wanting to play at first as extremely excited even the bark it made at Caesar just as he was walking away struck me as incredibly frustrated/panicky. I just meant that if watched carefully the dog attempts to lick the palms of his hands when he puts his hands on the sides of the crate - before he even leaned over them yet which means they might be submissive to START. I know they sound ferocious because frustration can make a dog act aggressive(think of a dog thats been trying for a month to get at squirrels through the sliding glass door, yikes). The dog clearly wanted to interact and I doubt it was with malice intent was my meaning. I highly doubt if he kept at slowly cracking the door that the dog would have ever bitten him. I mostly said it looked like Cotton wanted to play because my mothers dog makes the SAME aggressive sounding barks growls and snarls when playing with my girl(or wanting to play with her) and I know for a fact no one's getting hurt especially when my girl likes to growl back as they roll around playing and eventually stop to drink from the same water bowl. Cotton even wagged and ear flipped and did the same things Pepper does when inviting Farrah to play.

I do like Victoria more but I don't think she's perfect - there's no such thing, she has less things that put me off though. Like, in some cases I don't think it was necessary for her to drag the owners to their local pound and go "this is where your dog is going if you don't change because one day - you wont have a choice". It might have been well intended but struck me in some situations as taking advantage of the owners emotions for the sake of the show and not particularly necessary to that case.

That and she seems conflicted on whether or not to eat around your dog. She told several people to eat first even some of them to pretend eat dog food first but in another family mocked them for eating in front of the dog by setting out deserts and telling the kids they're going to only sit there and watch her eat them. Perhaps the circumstances were different but I wouldn't not have snacks just because the dog might feel its unfair and warf it out of my hand. No, they'd need to learn to sit there - better yet lie down and not intervene in my desire to snack. But her methods are tried and true in general and work very well. They are more modern and based on more recent and accurate studies and research and play off a dogs mentality - not the wolfs. Dogs are almost always born eager to please, it's the humans that can either run with that trust or destroy it.​

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
That wasn't a frustrated bark or panicky bark, that was simply the dog seeing the person retreating and Cotton seeing it as an opportunity to become more aggressive. If the crate had been open the dog would have gone after Cesar when his back was turned. It goes along perfectly with Cotton's other behavior. Bratty, learned aggression from a dog that isn't confident enough to back up the attitude.

 

[chickerdoodle]

Quote:
THANK you. Someone said it.

"Naturally aggressive", give me a break - Cotton was CLEARLY just crated WAY too long and gave CLEAR signals of wanting to play that he completely misread. Dogs bark and growl when they are EXCITED (try watching puppies at play). If they are being aggressive you will see all their teeth and tail stiff and ears flat on their head. Being crated all the time causes frustration and frustration causes aggressive behavior. He was RIGHT with the slow opening of the crate door but if he patiently kept at JUST THAT eventually the dog would sit and wait for it to be opened. He didn't NEED to jump to an aggressive dominant gesture making what is a friendly but frustrated dog FEARFUL and so uncertain what was wanted. I guarantee the dog went right back to that behavior after he left because all it learned was that it's crate was a BAD PLACE where it was not only caged too much but forced now into a submissive position in. My dogs are APPROPRIATELY crate trained and view it as a safe place to go to get AWAY from things that scare them. He did the opposite making it an even scarier place and I guarantee he's going to bite the next person to callously shove him in it out of fear.
Can anyone else see what he seveeerely misinterpreted once he got the dog out? A certain lil paw? Lifting a paw is NOT a gesture of going AFTER someone and never has been and never will be. The ONLY time i'd ever seen a dog do so was a gesture of "please", heck. My girl does it juuust before she flops over to give me her belly. Hell if she was going to go after someone shed PICK one STARE at them raise her hackles and pull at the lead. None of which it was doing it was just... scared and confused and SO not used to being walked on a lead even.

As an added note WOLVES ARE NOT DOGS AND DOGS ARE NOT WOLVES. Not only do wolves RARELY do this crap to pack members but wolves SEEKING to be alpha will kill the "old" alpha to take over sometimes (There was a pack where a female killed her own father to take over the role of alpha). Wolves are WILD ANIMALS. Your dog, is not and even THEN wolves do LESS harassing of pack members than Caesar demonstrates on his show. This is like using lions for determining how exactly to treat a house cat. Dogs are domesticated animals bred for centuries NOT to require a heavy hand. They are in environments NOTHING like where wolves are and are being watched over and raised by humans - not wolves. Quit using wolves as a reason to bully a dog. My theory is Caesar is just for show because I have seen what that "training" does to dogs and I guarantee most of them are dead now after being too aggressive as aggression is what they learned. Hell, there was one family that tried to sue the show I recall for mis-representing(exaggerating) their case and not even HELPING in the end. It was the episode where he rolled the small muzzled dog on its back and pinned it for about 10 mins despite the owners repeatedly telling Caesar the last trainer they used did the SAME THING and it didn't help in the BG. Sure the owners were happy at the end of the episode but the dog was just as bad after the crew got what they wanted and left.

I love Victoria. She teaches a more humane way and has the SAME "duh" tips such as exercise and she gets some of the dumbest owners - ones that feed their dogs TEA and sweets, crate them all day and wonder why they are so crazed. BUT she still teaches not just NILIF but how to REDIRECT bad behaviors without abuse. She even points out where the owners are going wrong and teaches them to be aware of it. Like one couple had a dog that they didn't want on the couch or bed or furniture... they weren't aware they were letting him on the couch with them sometimes. So the dog had no clue if it was or wasn't allowed as the owners gave mixed signals. In the end they decided no not allowed and the dog was not going back up. OH and she actually did episodes where she REVISITED these homes showing indeed her methods worked. Maybe not perfectly as the owners liked to slip up, but the stuff they STUCK WITH worked. But she still had an approach that was meant to build the owner and dogs confidence together. So simply dropping your dog off at a trainer that trains this way or even clicker training isn't going to cut it ever. If they aren't working - you should be there doing them with your dog so both of you have confidence in each other.

One final note Caesar is NOT a dog trainer. Victoria IS and she has awards to prove it. He has a warning on his show not to do what he does for a REASON. It might get you maimed or even killed doing the things he does. So yes, strong feelings here.

Agree and agree. I have been a professional behaviorist for over twenty years and Cesar is not an "expert" at reading a dog's body language. Sometimes he gets it right but its usually a simple diagnosis and the problem was exacerbated by the owners.

I do believe dogs and wolves do have a lot in common however. Pack hierarchy is only a piece of the puzzle in our relationship with dogs. Wolves and dogs know humans are not the same as they are and do not necessarily treat us the same or expect us to do so. They respect those who supply food and comfort and there is no reason to fight something (us) who they benefit from. Canines can and do have close relationships with other individuals when all of their critical needs have been met (food, shelter, physical and mental stimulation, etc.). We need to expand this relationship by giving clear instructions--consistently--or they become confused and frustrated. Misinterpretations are often the reason for behavior "problems" to arise. Confidence does play a part but you do not have to use physical pressure. It goes deeper but it is essential to correctly read their body language or the confusion becomes worse. They may stop (shut down) due to anxiety and appear to someone not able to read their "language" to incorrectly think the dog is better. I have seen it several times on his show and often wonder what happens with the pet later. I am tired of discussing Cesar as those who like him have their reasons, I know I have the respect of my clients, colleagues and other professionals and will continue my education and passion for animal behavior.

 

[Barred Rocks forever]

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lol try saying the rong thing at dog shows