Chick died after external pip - possible causes?

[ladybrasa]

I am presently hatching some shipped lavender Orpington eggs. Humidity stayed upper 20s to very low 40s during incubation (no water added). For lockdown I filled up my water wells and added a dish with this tiny ‘donut’ humidifier that I used anytime I messed with the incubator. This is not ideal, but it has been better than last hatch when I couldn’t keep humidity up at all. Lockdown humidity is ranging from roughly low 70s after having the humidifier on for a few minutes to upper 50s after letting it be for many hours (like overnight).

Three externally pipped late last night. This morning one was zipped and I pulled away a little bit of shell for it as it seemed to maybe be a bit stuck in a couple spots? It was ready to come out. Humidity was upper 50s at that time. Got humidity up to about 60-70. This morning I made sure to remove just the shell chip over the pip of the other two, just to ensure they could breathe and were alive. Their little beaks were there. I had to go out for a couple hours (to the PO for hatching eggs!!). Came back and a second was zipped and out all by itself, but the third is now dead. Humidity was still around 65-70 or so. Beak was still at the pip. I peeled back some shell around the air cell end to look. Inner membrane appeared moist and no blood vessels. There may have been a little inner membrane over the nostril end of the beak, but looks like the chick could have just shifted the littlest bit if that were a problem? I’m hesitant to pick away the shell further

Any thoughts on cause? There is another egg that is alive and internally pipped, and another I’m not sure if it’s still alive - can’t appreciate any movement, but it’s too light for candling to be sure right now (don’t have a roomy dark closet!). Any thoughts are appreciated!

 

[JaeG]

I'd say it is probably down to the humidity dropping below 60%. When you look up Incubation Troubleshooting that's listed under the "pipped but didn't hatch" section and that's the most likely reason. The blood vessels do disappear very quickly when the chick dies - I had a malpositioned chick that unfortunately didn't make it and that's something I noticed. Your chick must have just been at the wrong stage when the humidity fell.

A wet cloth or sponge in the incubator should help to bump the humidity up. Just ensure it isn't touching any of the eggs still to hatch as it will actually draw moisture out of the eggs. Good luck with your remaining eggs.

 

[ladybrasa]

I'd say it is probably down to the humidity dropping below 60%.

Thank you for the reply. The humidity while I was out was definitely 60+. And the other egg that had pretty much pipped at the same time was zipped and hatched no problem under the same conditions. I did place a warm damp washcloth in before I left, too, just for assurance.

As a side note, one chick is definitely black and not lavender. Do lavenders throw a black chick sometimes? These lavender Orpington eggs were not sold as split eggs.

(Btw, the humidity says 78 because it is right next to the washcloth)

 

[JaeG]

I have read that black is used to improve lavender so hopefully the black chick is split to lavender. They are very cute.

Don't worry about the humidity with me - I like it higher than most as that means I can open the incubator if necessary without worrying about the humidity dropping too low.

 

[ladybrasa]

Could I have it too humid though?? Or the approx 55-75% variation? I am suspecting one or two of the four eggs that are to hatch Saturday (two days apart, couldn’t help it) May have died (before internal pip). I feel fairly confident the temp is pretty steady, but of course goes down a couple degrees if I open it to check humidity or pipping, but recovers quickly. I am candling the eggs to try and keep abreast of changes also. I am placing them back in the fat end up position as they were, and I don’t think I’m handling them roughly. But perhaps simply too much?

 

[JaeG]

If they are your own eggs or eggs you collected from a breeder I wouldn't worry about handling them too much, but shipped eggs are a bit more delicate, although apparently by day 14 they should be past that delicate stage. I do candle a lot but I started with quail eggs (which are very forgiving) and it has helped me to be able to recognise when an egg has died or if there looks to be an issue.

At this late stage try not to move the egg around when you are candling - try and keep it in the same position it is sitting in inside the incubator just in case the chick gets confused and tries to turn around.

As long as you don't have condensation forming inside the incubator I wouldn't worry too much about the humidity being too high. It just takes the chicks a bit longer to dry off if it's on the high side.

With the egg you are concerned about does it still look full and dark under the air cell? If the chick dies it sinks towards the narrow end and develops a watery, yellow gap between the chick and bottom of the air cell. You probably won't see movement at this late stage until the air cell develops the slant and the chick starts to 'shadow' at the high end of the air cell before pipping into the low end.

 

[nao57]

Its so frustrating trying to keep eggs alive.

I salute your efforts.

The question you posed in the opening thread is precisely why many people will decide, if the chicks aren't out by X hours, then I will get them out regardless of whatever.

I like this approach. You can give them time to exercise their muscles and life force trying to get out, but you don't have to wait till they are dead to do so.

But you can learn from it and be better off next time.

 

[JaeG]

Its so frustrating trying to keep eggs alive.

I salute your efforts.

The question you posed in the opening thread is precisely why many people will decide, if the chicks aren't out by X hours, then I will get them out regardless of whatever.

I like this approach. You can give them time to exercise their muscles and life force trying to get out, but you don't have to wait till they are dead to do so.

But you can learn from it and be better off next time.

I agree it can be very frustrating.

I thought I was doing pretty well after hatching probably hundreds of quail eggs, and 5 out of 9 Muscovy duck eggs that had been shipped to me. I know my incubator pretty well having used it for a number of years. Then I tried chicken eggs. What a disaster! I had 6 eggs shipped to me and despite them getting to me overnight they'd had a rough ride with loose air cells and yolks that sank. One made it to lockdown but it was malpositioned with its head pointing down between its thighs so it couldn't pip. I was pretty cut up about that. I did not want to feel like a failure so I tried again and managed to get 2 out of 6 to hatch (and boy, do we love those 2).

Recently my DH collected some eggs from a breeder a 3 hours drive away, and I also ordered some other eggs to be shipped to me. Of the 10 that were picked up all made it to lockdown and 9 hatched (the last one was malpositioned I think from my humidity taking a dive right before lockdown). Of the 8 that were shipped to me I managed to get 3 to lockdown and they all hatched without issue. It was amazing to see the difference between the 2 batches, one having been shipped and the other picked up. I lost 3 of the shipped ones around day 7, another around day 10 and the 5th around day 13.

So it can be very disheartening trying to hatch chicks especially if the eggs have been shipped, and that first time trying chicken eggs and having none hatch I felt like a complete failure.

 

[ladybrasa]

Last hatch - more or less my first, and first on shipped eggs - had about a 50% hatch rate. This one was like 10%. Had at least 5 that died after lockdown. The only difference (other than vendor, distances weren’t any farther than last time, and even within the same state for one group!) was that I was able to keep up humidity much better.

Other than the two Orps, I had what I thought was marked as a Brabanter but turned out to be a Pavlovskaya, unzip. I helped because there was nasty yellow junk kind of foaming/oozing out of the egg. I honk it popped its waste sac as the yolk was absorbed. Rinsed off the chick in warm water as it was covered in the stuff. Put back in the incubator for awhile before moving under the heat plate. It died the next day. I guess I can’t rule out aspirating some water, but I really don’t think so ...

Anyway, I did open the lids on the eggs that died, just the shell over the air cell. I didn’t go further than that. Membranes looked intact and not really dried out, I think. One definitely had some toes visible at the top, so malposition? Another looked to have a good air cell space on candle, but on opening the chick was definitely filling most of that space and I couldn’t make out where exactly the head was. So possibly malposition or the chick couldn’t turn adequately. Some of the eggs did look a little on the narrow side. Two looked to have more fluid in the chick section than others. One’s fluid was yellowish and one’s fluid definitely had some red in it. Was not able to make out beaks, but I also didn’t look further.

So, I think at least some may have drowned due to malposition and/or may have not been able to move properly? I know this may be due to shipping somehow. In the future, is there a way to determine if a chick is malpositioned before it hatches? Trouble turning? How can I help these chicks in the future? I did put a safety hole in two, but that wouldn’t help if the beak isn’t near the air cell.

I expected to have quitters during incubation, but definitely disheartening when they appear to happily grow along through incubation, then die around hatch

 

[JaeG]

It's awful when they are malpositioned and it does seem to be a lot more common with shipped eggs. There's no way of knowing if they are malpositioned other than sometimes they don't look 'right' under the air cell. If they have their heads between their thighs there's nothing you can do because they have no hope of pipping and you can't provide oxygen without potentially causing more harm. I did try with my last malpositioned chick, making a hole in the membrane, and it was breathing despite its head being between its thighs, but the membrane dried out overnight and suffocated it despite the humidity being 75%.

Unfortunately there can be factors that you can't control such as how well the breeders flock was fed, how healthy they are and their age. Those factors have a huge impact on the hatchability of the eggs and their ability to cope with being shipped.

Make sure you disinfect your incubator well before setting any more eggs.