Chicken seizuring and throwing up- Now suspect sour crop- question!

[Miss Lydia]

next time she poops look closely to make sure what you are seeing isn't moving. How old did you say she is? has she ever been wormed?
just went back and looked at her age. 3 years old. if she has never been wormed I'd say it's about time to treat her and your flock. Worms will bring a chicken down fast and unless her feet never touch the ground she could deff. have an infestation. Most people on BYC have a schedule of worming their chickens 2 to 3 times a year depending on where you live. and most of the time you never see a worm before you worm them, I was one of the lucky ones I saw round worms in their poo and just about freaked out. Now I will worm 3 times a year starting in March. I will also treat for lice and mites too.

 

[miniwarrior]

i was going to worm her after reading about the possibility of gapeworm and some others. i've never wormed the flock because in Story's Guide to Raising chickens it talks about how it's better to let the flock build up some immunities and it's never been a problem. But now that it could be i think i will worm all of them just to cover my bases and make sure they're ok. i was going to use wazine and then in a couple weeks ivermectin but i can't figure out where to get them. is that something you have to go to a vet for or will a pharmacy carry them? I've searched on the posts and online and it seems like i'd have to wait until monday to go to the vet to buy them. do you know of a place to buy them on the weekend?

 

[Miss Lydia]

I don't know where you are in the USA or if your in another country, but I know you can buy most wormers online or at Tractor supply. Instead of buying 2 different wormers why not get Valbazen it's actually a wormer for sheep but is very safe to use on Chickens and it kills round worms and the other types too. that way you only worm once. heres the worming chart which will show you how effective it is. It also kills the worms slowly over a couple of days so they are being over loaded with dead worms all at once. http://healthybirds.umd.edu/disease/deworming Birds.pdf I agree with you about not over medicating and letting the chickens build immunity to whatever, but if you dig in the ground constantly your going to pick up worms. And thats what birds like to do is dig in the ground.

 

[miniwarrior]

I went to check on Butters this morning and she is doing LOTS better!! She had eaten some feed and egg and was walking around the crate scratching and pecking for seed! She hasn't done that at all since Wednesday so this is a good sign! She had also pooped again, and i took a really close look at it. Nothing was moving and the grainy parts are definitely undigested grain/seed she must have eaten off the ground before i even isolated her. There are quite a few redish-brownish seeds that are about the size of a bebe. I don't know if these are at all related to her getting sick but i'm going to look around now and see if i can figure out where they came from.

Valbazen does look like a good one-time wormer- thanks for that! i will check if our general store has any tomorrow and if not, i'll order some. what dosage do you normally give them? I found this info on valbazen dosage somewhere else but wanted to double check: shake well and add 10cc to 1 gallon of water and give to birds for at least 24 hours

I totally agree that since they dig in the ground, and probably eat a bit of their own poop in the process, they are sometimes going to pick up a few worms now and then. i will worm them all now since i've never done it before and then I'll think about if it would be necessary to do it regularly or not.

as a side note- i found one of my other hens today eating her egg

This is the first one i've caught ever doing that! i was hoping that would never be a problem... oh well...

 

[Miss Lydia]

just found this and hope it helps.



Go online to 'jeffers livestock' and you can order Valbazen there, that's where I bought mine. Valbazen kills all kinds of worms including tapeworms. They ship it fast too. You can buy Safeguard there as well but you can probably buy it at a feed store or TSC. FYI: Valbazen's label states for 'cattle and sheep.' Safeguard (fenbendazole) is an equine paste wormer. Dosage for Valbazen is one half cc/ml per chicken (not injected) given orally. Ten days later after giving them the Valbazen, give them each a 'pea' sized dose of Safeguard paste. Discard the eggs 2 weeks after the Valbazen and Safeguard for a total of 4 weeks.

and in keeping chickens it's something new everyday. Make sure they are getting a good sourse of protein, especially this time of year with breding and laying getting into full swing..

Happy to hear Butters is doing good...

More Info:

it's not necessary to repeat worming with safeguard though just use the Valbazen only.One of my hens was looking thin and then I saw a roundworm in droppings this week-ugh! Based on various posts on this site, I decided to worm my hens with Valbazen (albendazole). Afterwards, I had some serious second thoughts, which led me to do some additional investigation, which ultimately calmed my nerves. The recommendation to use Valbazen was a good one! Thanks to BYC!

The article that calmed my nerves describes research done on broilers using 3 dose levels of albendazole (5 mg, 10 mg and 20 mg/kg body weight) and then measuring the effectiveness by doing necropsy analysis 7 days after treatment. Here is the link to the journal article: http://japr.fass.org/cgi/content/full/16/3/392#T1

Summary of study findings and how I’ll manage my flock:
1. There was a high incidence of worms in this 1 year old flock, maintained on litter. Incidence:
o Ascaridia galli (roundworms)—73% adults; 80% larvae,
o Heterakis gallinarum (cecal worms)—100% adults; 73% larvae
o Capillaria obsignata. (capillary or thread worms)—100% adults; 100% larvae
o Raillietina cesticillus (tapeworms)—53%

2. There were no adverse effects of albendazole treatments on bird appearance, behavior, apparent appetite, and weight gain.

3. Good control was seen at 10 mg/kg for all worms except tapeworms, which required 20 mg/kg for control.

4. Through other medical websites, I found that albendazole is used to treat humans with worm infections.

5. Conclusions:
o Since there is a very high incidence of worms in chickens raised on litter, I plan to worm my chickens 2 times per year, or more frequently if I observe worms or weight loss.

o I will use 10-20 mg albendazole/kg body weight, which translates to:
- 2 pound chicken ~0.1 ml Valbazen
- 4 pound chicken ~0.25 ml Valbazen
- 7 pound chicken ~0.5 ml Valbazen

o I’ll not eat the eggs for 2 weeks, although since albendazole is used in humans, this is probably not essential.

I hope others find this useful.

 

[Miss Lydia]

There is also a product called Epernix, I ordered it from Jeffers, it is safe and no egg withdrawl, it will treat enternal and external parasites. Tried to find some info. but didn't locate any.

 

[miniwarrior]

Wow- thanks for all the detailed info on worming! I'll do some research and see what i can find.

Meanwhile Butters was definitely eating more today and I've been feeding her a mix of yogurt, applesauce, honey and crumbles to gently clean her out. I did pick her up today to examine her and she got excited and tried to get away so she was struggling a little. that's when i heard her breath was still not quite normal- it sounded like something was obstructing it... sort of like air trying to get through liquid...maybe she has something down her wind pipe??? whatever this is hopefully with a little more rest and nursing it will work it's way out.

Thanks for all your help and advice, Miss Lydia! You've been a great support!!

 

[spiritdance]

Quote:
This site has info on Eprinex: http://shilala.homestead.com/ivomec.html

 

[AndreaS]

Good Morning,

I just realized that this threaad had been updated. Sorry for responding so late!

So.....here's the thing. It seems to me that this could be a couple of different things, and it would be really good to get a better idea of exactly what the problem is before throwing a bunch of medicines or treatments at it. You wouldn't happen to be able to take a fecal sample to a vet for analysis, would you? Many vets that won't treat chickens will still do a fecal check when you tell them that they will be looking for the same things as they do in dogs. Ask them to check for worms and Coccidia. I recently had a sick hen who had dirrehea and would not eat. She had lost a lot of weight, and I was really worried that I was going to loose her. I was pretty convienced that it was worms, but I had my vet do a fecal check ($15) and it was Cocci. Some level of Coccidia is normal, but when there is an overpopulation it can kill them. After treating her with Corid for 5 days she is 100% better. I wasn't expecting Cocci because she is 11 months old, but they can always get an unhealthy balance.

I know that in Storeys guide they advise against worming to build up resistance, however, a lot of folks here still choose to worm twice a year to be on the safe side. The thing is though, if the problem is not worms....wormers can be very hard on a bird that already has a compromised immune system. I would want a confirmation of worms before I decided to worm a sick bird....and, if it is not worms and you are able to get her well, once she is recovered you can worm your whole flock. I used Wazine in their water, and then followed up in 2 weeks with Valbazen (You can get both from tractor supply, southern states, many feed stores, or order online).

The "throwing up" really bothers me. It makes me think crop issues. Even if her crop is not fully impacted, it may be getting slow or sour. Again, chickens don't throw up, so liquid coming out of her mouth means that things must be backing up in her crop. The contents will continue to rot or ferment and poison her. IF this is the problem. There are a couple antifungual medicines that some people use, they have been used in women to treat yeast infections and for chicldren with thrush. I think the two are Nystatin and Diflucan. Basically, you want to continue feeding only very easily dissolved foods. Mashed, hard boiled egg yolk (no whites, not scrambled because they aren;t as easily broken down). Yogurt, her crumbled ground fine in a food processor. The general rule is anything that will dissolve and settle to the bottom in a glass of water in five minutes is all you want to give them. You take the food up at night so you can see if her crop is emptying, which since she is pooping a little, it seems like at leaast something is getting through. The other thing you want to do is try to massage that crop to break up the contents so they can pass. Massage serveral times through the day if you can. This is just what i remember, let me dig up my links on slow/sour crop and post them here.......even though the fluid isn't stinky yet, it may just be that you caught it very early, which is good! The the other thing to note here is that a slow crop can be a symptom of another problem all together.

The other possibility would be respiratory issues, although this doesn't seem as likely. If it were respiratory, I would have a hard time pin pointing which respiratory problem it could be, unless there are more symptoms. There are a ton of respiratory meds out there, but certain ones are more effective for one type of sickness over another.

I would be very tempted to call Peter Brown of first state vet supply and have a phone consultation. He asks for a donation, or for you to purchase something from his website, which has tons of chicken meds/supplies. He is very helpful, and stayed on the phone with me for an hour explaining how to tube feed a chicken. I highly recommend him. Here is his website www.firststatevetsupply.com He sells both Piperazine 17% (same thing as Wazine) and Valbazen, so you could always just order your wormers through him, and get the consultation for free.

Ok, I am going to dig up all my slow crop research, and will update with links on here for you to read. In the meantime, Can you give us as many details as possible as far as Butters and her flock mates go? Have you ever had any illnesses, what kind of food do they eat, do they free range, do they always have access to free choice granite grit, have you had any problems with sneezing, nasal drainage, rattling chests, etc...check Butters over really good for us, and see if you can find ANY otheer symptoms of respiratory. Any bubbles in her eyes, any nasal drainage, etc....? I'm leaning towards crop issues on this one, but again, it could be several things.

How is she feeling this morning? Did her crop empty last night or is it still squishy? Is she loosing weight yet, or does she still feel healthy? No more "seizures", right? I'm hoping you caught this early enough that we will be able to get her better, and she'll be strong enough to fight. I'll edit to post crop links below.

Andrea

Okay, here's what I have so far: (From my library of Threehorses old posts)

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=248715&p=1 This thread has some pretty good info about what to feed and how to do crop massage with a little Organic Apple Cider Vinegar to help break it up and stop fungal growth. Unfortunatly, the hen died....and the OP did not update much with what she had tried, but there's lots of good info.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=207340&p=1 Information on Nystain and Diflucan along with good dietary info for crop issues.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=262329 Information on crop issues being a secondary effect of botulism and or/worm infestation, discusses gently flushing along with crop massage...

 

[AndreaS]

Sorry, I should have read through all of the posts better

Just realized that you said they do free range, so of course it's possible that Butters could have gotten into anything. She's a pretty girl, by the way!

Alot of people believe that even with free range hens it's a good idea to leave a small dish of crushed granite grit out free choice next to their food. That way you know for certain that they have access to something to help them digest what they eat. It's not expensive, so I usually just keep a filled dish of it next to their oyster shell.

That sucks about the egg eating. I've heard it can be hard to break them of it once they figure it out. I think I read that if you can make it darker in the next boxes (hang a curtain, etc..) it will help keep them from doing it because they can't see as well to place a really well aimed peck at the egg...