Chicken seizuring and throwing up- Now suspect sour crop- question!

[miniwarrior]

Thanks so much for your post, Andrea. Honestly, I was having second thoughts about worming her because I don't think this is worms. There are no signs of them in her poop and i wouldn't think she would start doing better so quickly without being treated for them. But I will take a sample of her feces to the vet today just to be sure- I am waiting on a call back from them to confirm they will do the test. I will go ahead and give Peter Brown a call today and check the links about crop issues- thanks for those.

So here's the latest update on Butters: She has started eating a little more now and showing a small appetite- I literally spoon fed her some yogurt/applesauce/crumble mix for her gentle flush and that was the only way she was going to eat it as far as i could tell. I went ahead just now and switched out the dry crumbles for yogurt mixed with crumbles (blended as fine as i could). She did not seem interested and just dipped her beak in to eat but then stopped. The other thing that I am getting concerned about now is that she does not seem to be drinking. Earlier today I saw her dip her beak in the water and then lift if out without drinking. I change it 1-2 times a day so it's clean, but she just isn't interested. She was most interested in eating plain dry crumbles earlier but just a little bit.

I gave her another examination today- and every time I pick her up she makes this noise that I can only describe as wheezing. I don't think it is rattling in the chest, though- it seems more to be in the throat area but I am not really sure what it is. Her eyes are clear and I haven't seen any more discharge from her beak. There's no discharge from her nose at all. She is still alert today and walking around her crate and scratching, so she must still be feeling better. I can tell she just wants to get out and walk around the yard! She still hasn't pooped much- just once since last night- and when she does it's really dry- I'm guessing from not drinking much water. The wheezing thing when I pick her up is the only indication it could be respiratory. Her crop emptied last night- I did not leave her food overnight and checked it this morning. She still feels the same weight and is not bony. And no more seizures, thankfully!

The new thing I found today was that her earlobes have this whitish stuff growing on them. I hadn't noticed it before because they were hidden in the folds of her earlobes. I read in another thread that this can be from laying lots of eggs or maybe a fungus... I checked on the rest of the ladies and nobody else seems to have it. (and I borrowed my roommate's camera to get you a better picture!)

As for the rest of the flock, the only real disease I've ever had come through was fowl pox, and that was over a year ago now and they all completely recovered except one, who I thought was not going to make it but she pulled through in the end. I've never really had a problem with lots of sneezing or illness- overall I'd say they are a healthy flock. Their combs are bright and they are quite active. They eat organic layer crumbles from Coyote Creek- they are very good. I give them oyster shell on the side, but I don't give them extra grit right now. I already have some crushed granite that i use in the garden so I can easily put that out for them. Here's some pics of my setup:

This is the run- there is a scrap woodpile they have access roam around behind the run:

This is the other side of the run:

And this is the coop. So they actually have a coop in a run in a bigger run. And I just lock up the smaller run at night.

 

[miniwarrior]

OK- so I just gave her a crop massage and in the process, I could hear liquid in there squishing around

I had felt it before and it felt a little squishy, and I definitely didn't hear any liquid sloshing around in it. I just assumed it was squishy because it was empty. I gave her some apple cider vinegar/water from a dropper.

i found some really dry poop in her cage- i don't think it was there long, but it could have been since it was hidden under the straw. In this pic you can see how she hasn't really digested the grains and seeds in there- they are still whole- so it would seen that her crop is probably the issue:

Also- I am going to start giving her a dropper of water with electrolytes in it since i don't see that she's drinking on her own. I have to leave the house for a little now but will update again tonight!

 

[miniwarrior]

OK- I just got back and massaged her crop again. there is still the liquidy sound in there, and I believe there is a faint sour smell. So she may have sour crop- or the beginnings of it. My question is that if she is not eating much, should I keep her on water with electrolytes and vitamins or switch to ACV water because she might have sour crop? I don't know that sour crop is what started this whole thing or if it might be developing now because of some other bigger issue. This also may be a non-question because as far as I can tell she is not drinking much anyways. Should I be giving her droppers of electrolyte water and ACV water if she isn't drinking on her own?

Also, she's refusing any of the mashed up stuff that I am giving her like yogurt or applesauce, but still wants to eat dry crumbles. Is it ok to give these to her? I don't want her to get weak because she's not eating or drinking...

 

[PatS]

Just wanted to say my BOs and my friend's do get the whitish earlobes and all seem very healthy. I don't think that has anything to do with what's bothering her.
Keep us up to date.

 

[AndreaS]

Your set up looks great! Butters is such a pretty girl, and her comb is still bright red. That is a good sign, at least. I'm not sure about the whitish earlobes- like the other poster said, it is probably unrelated.

I still would like to rule out the possibility of gape worms or of something obstructing her throat. Can You get someone to help you hold her mouth open and shine a flashlight down her throat to see if you can see anything? Also, You can gently swab her throat with a q tip and see if you can find any little red forked worms on it. My understanding is that the worms will eventually clog up their airways.

I agree that the slow/sour crop may be secondary. I would keep trying to massage it, and call Peter Brown to see what he suggests. Any chance you can get your hands on some Nystatin or Diflucan? The nystatin is supposed to be used on an empty crop, so if she is not emptying completely the diflucan may be better.

I personally would let her have her crumbles, ground up, and just offer some egg yolk occasionally to see if you can get her some extra protein. I would also give her water/electrolytes by hand if she is not drinking.

Did she poop last night? Can you tell if anything is still moving through? What did your vet say about doing a fecal? Trish (Miss Lydia) is right that worms can really bring them down quickly, so it would be a good idea to rule it out even if you haven't seen any. Hope your vet will do the fecal. Do you think they'd be willing to give you a script for nystatin or diflucan?

I'd be really interested to see what Peter Brown suggests on this one....especially the seizures.

Also, you could PM Ruth from this thread https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=229796&p=1 she is our crop surgery expert, and while I don't know that Butters needs surgery, I think Ruth has a good technique for expelling "milking" the crop without causing them to asphyxiate. I'm scared to death of doing it!

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you both!

 

[miniwarrior]

So this morning I checked on Butters and she is still looking alert and walking around the crate. She pooped last night and it is starting to look less grainy- although now I think that could also be because she has't been eating much outside of the mush and crumbles I am feeding her. She's still only interested in plain dry crumbles, which I have processed to be a fine mash now. She won't eat the yogurt/applesauce mix which I find very strange because she usually LOVES yogurt. I suppose she could be drinking when I'm not looking, but I just don't know! Thanks for the reassurance about her earlobes- I just want to put everything out there in case it might be related!

Her crop felt empty this morning except for some liquid I can still hear squishing around in there- plus she's still making that wheezing sound when I pick her up. She only does it when she's struggling to get away- if she's breathing normally I can't hear anything unusual... I gave her a dropper full of ACV water, electrolyte water, and some poly-vi-sol. My roommate helped me look down her throat and do a q-tip swab and it looks fine. It looked normal I think (although I've never looked down the throat of a chicken before so I'm just going on the fact that everything was pink and smooth looking and her! No obvious worms...). The q-tip came out with a little clear mucus on it, but nothing unusual.

Oh- I realized in my earlier posts I didn't mention that when she initially had the "seizures" her comb turned blue. I figured maybe this was because of a lack of oxygen to the brain, but I remembered it because this morning when I checked on her, the very back corner of her comb was slightly blue-ish. Not as much as on Wednesday, but it is there.

I am tempted to put her out with the rest of the chickens because she is acting so normal other than the eating/drinking and she obviously wants to be out. She keeps calling back and forth to them (she's under the covered area outside the back door and they are in the back of the yard). I feel like this is not something contagious- but in the case that it is worms, I am still keeping her confined until I rule that out. Plus if it is something related to her respiratory system it's probably not a good idea to let her run and stress her immune system more... It's just such a long time she's having to stay all cooped up!

So I tried calling Peter Brown yesterday but his number is always busy. The instructions on his website say that consultations are only made by appointment, but I can't find any instructions on how to make an appointment! I tried emailing him but haven't received any response yet. I am still waiting on a call back from my vet about the fecal test- if I can't get a yes or no from them by mid-day, I'll try another vet.

 

[Miss Lydia]

Just wanted to say that I am glad to hear Butters is doing better and hope you can find out whats going on with her.

 

[miniwarrior]

thanks a bunch

It really helps to have BYC people helping me out and being so supportive!!

 

[AndreaS]

The last time I called Peter Brown he answered the phone himself. That was just a few weeks ago. He did tell me when I called that he had been in a bad car accident. He made it sound like it was pretty severe and that he was quite affected by it. I wonder if that is related to him not answering? I guess I would keep on trying. He is very knowledgeable, and he might be able to better narrow down the problem. It's a shame, I hope he's ok. I also wish I knew where threehorses, dlhunicorn, and Glenda Heywood went. They used to always respond to these emergency posts and were very helpful.

I understand about wanting to let Butters out with her friends. It's always a quality of life vs. Fixing the problem sort of question, and of course, its your call. If it is worms, then the others already have them as well. I was really thinking that the only type of worm it might be would be gape worm, especially if she hasn't
been loosing weight, but if you didn't see anything in her throat.....I just don't know. If it is respiratory, the others have been exposed to it already and maybe their immune systems are stronger. But she's not showing any other respiratory symptoms. If its a crop issue, they can't catch that....but if you let her out you wont be able to control what she eats....or watch her poop as well. I guess the only other thing I can think of is some sort of injury, maybe hitting her head on a roost or something like that. I thought maybe she was choking on something or had some sort of obstruction, but I would think you would have seen that.

The comb starting to turn blue again is concerning. How does it look this morning? Are the tips going blue or has it stayed in just that one spot? Have you still been doing crop massage? How does her weight feel? How about poops? Things still getting through?

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=261513

On the blue comb, all I can find is kind of obvious. Heart problems, respiratory, crop....

Sorry I can't be of more help. I feel like I'm shooting in the dark on this one.

 

[miniwarrior]

Sorry I haven't posted in a couple days! This week has gotten busy. But I have been watching Butters and giving her a dropper of ACV water every morning and evening. She has been recovering well as far as her crop and eating issues go- yesterday she finally started eating more normally! I food processed some oatmeal and yogurt and she ate it all! Today I gave her some scrambled egg since she has been eating more and she seems to have been fine with it. Her crop is the fullest it's been in a week tonight, but still not a normal size full crop. I finally saw her drinking for the first time in days too. such a relief! and pooping normally also.

I was able to speak to Peter Brown today and this is what he said he thinks happened: The tube (I can't remember the technical name for it) that food leaves the crop in to go to the stomach is very small- about the size of a #2 pencil lead. Most likely, she ate something that she shouldn't have or something lodged the opening to that tube, which meant that everything she ate after that kept building up in her crop. So if I had known to check her crop when I saw that she had discharge coming out of her beak I probably would have found that it was pretty large or hadn't emptied the night before. He said the "seizures" might have been because something got into her airway and she was trying to dislodge it- or they could have been real seizures. Although there's no way to really tell at this point any more- especially from a phone consultation. He said the wheezing sound she makes when I pick her up could be from her having aspirated some liquid, which can take a while for them to work out of their airway. But since she has been healing well, and is starting to eat and drink normally he agreed that it's probably ok to put her out with everyone else and just watch her closely. So I put her back with her friends tonight!!!

Peter Brown was really great to talk to also- he did not charge since by the time I spoke to him, Butters was pretty much ok. He did mention the

I have learned so much about chickens and crops in the past week! It has been fascinating and i am very thankful that Butters made it through. I'm sure she'll be one happy chicken to be back with the others tomorrow