Chicks from same parents look different from one another

[The Moonshiner]

I am totally hearing what you are saying, but I paid specifically for these two breeds from known breeders, so I am confused. Are you saying that an Ameraucana and BCM sold an individual could actually somewhere in their gene pool have had something else in their mix, but doesn't present itself and other way?

Now I'm confused.
Ameraucana can be lots of patterns but never heard of one being silver penciled and no way should a BCM be penciled.
Which parent is which pattern? And now I agree pics would help.
Now none of this is making sense. I don't think you have what you think you have.

 

[ShrekDawg]

Now I'm confused.
Ameraucana can be lots of patterns but never heard of one being silver penciled and no way should a BCM be penciled.
Which parent is which pattern? And now I agree pics would help.
Now none of this is making sense. I don't think you have what you think you have.

Agreed

 

[AinaWGSD]

I think it may be less confusing if we back up and start from square one. You mentioned that you are working on a "project breed", what is the project? Can you post pictures of the rooster and the hen with descriptions of the breed and color you believe each to be?

In the first post you mentioned that this is a project breed. In a project it's not unusual for unexpected recessive traits to pop up. "Purebred" doesn't mean much in chickens since breeders rarely keep pedigrees and what matters is that the resulting birds have the same appearance and can pass those appearances down to their offspring consistently.

As an example, orpingtons come in a lot of colors, but the very first variety (black) and the current most common variety (buff) come from completely completely different breed crosses. Black orpingtons were created using minorca, plymouth rocks, and langshans. Buff orpingtons were created using gold spangled hamburghs, cochins, and dorkings. Both varieties are judged using the same standard with the exception of color.

These days it's more common to create new color varieties by crossing a breed that already has that color into an established breed, but that hasn't and isn't always the case. Either way, that's how you can get things like incorrect comb type, incorrect body type, wrong number of toes, etc popping up in project birds.

it might help to consider that you are working with three different factors in project birds. Breed type (comb type, body type, number of toes, feather type) Color (black, blue, white, red) and Pattern (solid, partridge, mottled, laced/penciled, duckwing, barred, etc). These factors are not necessarily connected to each other and can be considered independently.

(Sorry if this doesn't make sense, I rambled a bit there especially with the orpington facts but I wanted to point out how there's more than one way to create a variety that fits the breed standard and how little "purity" matters for chicken breeds)

 

[NatJ]

Yes, both parents are purebreeds. One is a splash pattern and one is a silver penciled pattern. I didn't think the breed itself mattered since it was the color that is the only difference. Am I wrong?

The breed can matter. Sometimes it matters very much indeed.

Sometimes the "same" color will be caused by different genes in different breeds.
Examples:
--there are at least three combinations of genes that can make solid white chickens
--there are at least two combinations of genes that can make laced chickens, not counting the genes that change the colors involved in that pattern

Sometimes a color with the same name will actually look different. That means different genes to cause the different appearances.
Examples:
--Silver Pencilled Hamburgs have crosswise lines of black & white, while Silver Pencilled Rocks have concentric black & white lines on each feather.
--Spangled Hamburgs and Spangled Orloffs look very different from each other (not just the colors, but the patterning as well.)
--Jubilee Orpingtons and Jubilee Cornish look very different from each other, in both color and pattern.

 

[Snugglesandwigglespetcare]

Now I'm confused.
Ameraucana can be lots of patterns but never heard of one being silver penciled and no way should a BCM be penciled.
Which parent is which pattern? And now I agree pics would help.
Now none of this is making sense. I don't think you have what you think you have.

Neither of the parents are an Ameraucana or Black Copper Marans. I was using those breeds hypothetically. I have been out all day and haven't caught up on the response from everyone. Let me read up and circle back,

 

[The Moonshiner]

Neither of the parents are an Ameraucana or Black Copper Marans. I was using those breeds hypothetically. I have been out all day and haven't caught up on the response from everyone. Let me read up and circle back,

why couldn't you have just used the breeds they are?
This thread has me feeling like I'm being....

 

[Snugglesandwigglespetcare]

The breed can matter. Sometimes it matters very much indeed.

Sometimes the "same" color will be caused by different genes in different breeds.
Examples:
--there are at least three combinations of genes that can make solid white chickens
--there are at least two combinations of genes that can make laced chickens, not counting the genes that change the colors involved in that pattern

Sometimes a color with the same name will actually look different. That means different genes to cause the different appearances.
Examples:
--Silver Pencilled Hamburgs have crosswise lines of black & white, while Silver Pencilled Rocks have concentric black & white lines on each feather.
--Spangled Hamburgs and Spangled Orloffs look very different from each other (not just the colors, but the patterning as well.)
--Jubilee Orpingtons and Jubilee Cornish look very different from each other, in both color and pattern.

So interesting. Where do I look to study this for the individual breeds?

 

[Snugglesandwigglespetcare]

why couldn't you have just used the breeds they are?
This thread has me feeling like I'm being....
View attachment 3772040

I'm too old and professional to waste my time punking people, tbf. I thought the two would be a good hybrid for me and I am going for the color and the specific cross. The chicken calculator said the chicks would be blue, so I am trying to educate myself.

 

[Snugglesandwigglespetcare]

I think it may be less confusing if we back up and start from square one. You mentioned that you are working on a "project breed", what is the project? Can you post pictures of the rooster and the hen with descriptions of the breed and color you believe each to be?

In the first post you mentioned that this is a project breed. In a project it's not unusual for unexpected recessive traits to pop up. "Purebred" doesn't mean much in chickens since breeders rarely keep pedigrees and what matters is that the resulting birds have the same appearance and can pass those appearances down to their offspring consistently.

As an example, orpingtons come in a lot of colors, but the very first variety (black) and the current most common variety (buff) come from completely completely different breed crosses. Black orpingtons were created using minorca, plymouth rocks, and langshans. Buff orpingtons were created using gold spangled hamburghs, cochins, and dorkings. Both varieties are judged using the same standard with the exception of color.

These days it's more common to create new color varieties by crossing a breed that already has that color into an established breed, but that hasn't and isn't always the case. Either way, that's how you can get things like incorrect comb type, incorrect body type, wrong number of toes, etc popping up in project birds.

it might help to consider that you are working with three different factors in project birds. Breed type (comb type, body type, number of toes, feather type) Color (black, blue, white, red) and Pattern (solid, partridge, mottled, laced/penciled, duckwing, barred, etc). These factors are not necessarily connected to each other and can be considered independently.

(Sorry if this doesn't make sense, I rambled a bit there especially with the orpington facts but I wanted to point out how there's more than one way to create a variety that fits the breed standard and how little "purity" matters for chicken breeds)

I am actually breeding my lavender orpingtons with another breed for a separate project and have learned a lot, but goodness it is amazing how much there is to learn and how much time is spent on said projects, lol. I'm sure I am juggling more than I should. I love the LO body and feathering. They are just gorgeous. I wish the lavender was an easier color to breed and there weren't so many issues. So I am basically hearing that the Orpington as we know it today is likely not a pure breed since there have been so many breeds used to make the Orpington??

I appreciate the insights for factors to consider. It will be interesting to see what kind of comb these chicks end up with, their coloring, and patterning. I have more in the incubator as well, so that will be super interesting to see how the next batch turns out. I'm just starting, so I know I have a few years ahead of me,

 

[NatJ]

So interesting. Where do I look to study this for the individual breeds?

Unfortunately, I do not know of any single source for very much of it.

You can get some bits by looking at pictures of different chicken breeds (example: the Silver Pencilled Hamburgs vs. Silver Pencilled Rocks that I mentioned: same name for the variety, but different appearance.)

For the genes, it tends to take some searching and asking questions. This forum has quite a few threads about the genes of specific breeds and colors, and I can often find them through the forum search feature or even through a basic google search. I think google usually works better than the forum search.

I've been slowly collecting bits for quite a few years, and I am pretty sure some other people have been doing that too (I know some of them have a lot of knowledge, I just don't know for sure how they acquired it, so I'm guessing that much of it was in bits and pieces, the same way I learned.)

I thought the two would be a good hybrid for me and I am going for the color and the specific cross. The chicken calculator said the chicks would be blue, so I am trying to educate myself.

Posting pictures of the actual parents, and telling what breeds they are, would make it easier for me or anyone else to give helpful answers.

It will be interesting to see what kind of comb these chicks end up with, their coloring, and patterning. I have more in the incubator as well, so that will be super interesting to see how the next batch turns out. I'm just starting, so I know I have a few years ahead of me,

First chick photo on the first page of this thread, wet chick looking up at the sky:
it definitely has the rose comb gene, but I can't tell if it also has the pea comb gene or not.

If it just has the rose comb gene, it will have a rose comb.
If it has both rose and pea comb genes, the comb will be walnut if you ask a geneticist, but may be cushion or strawberry or a few other names if you compare with the official descriptions of various breeds.

The other chick picture in that post, I can't see the comb enough to tell.
The chick picture in your profile, I can't see that comb well enough either.

So I am basically hearing that the Orpington as we know it today is likely not a pure breed since there have been so many breeds used to make the Orpington??

If a "pure breed" is one that consistently produces more of the same kind, then Orpingtons are pure. For any breed of chicken, just don't mix the colors, unless you want non-standard colors of chicks. (There are some specific colors that can be interbred with good results, but most cannot.)

If a "pure breed" is one that has existed forever in the current form, and was not developed from other kinds of chickens, then there are no pure breeds. You probably didn't think this, but some people do take things to extremes and end up with such a position.

Some breeds definitely have existed for longer than others, but that does not mean that only the oldest ones are "pure."