Cocci, is it inevitable?

[cluckcluckluke]

well, I don't think any of my answers where answered.LOL.

BUt thanks for all the other info!

 

[chooks4life]

Quote: I feed freshly minced raw garlic from the very first feed onwards and have never experienced cocci nor any chick mortality from disease with my chickens. Discounting rare injuries or predator attacks, 100% make it to adulthood from every clutch. I don't vaccinate, don't use man made medications, don't feed pellets or crumble, and don't artificially hatch nor rear chicks.

I've raised many hundreds with only rare incidences of something 'doing the rounds' and symptoms showing that something's not totally healthy, but they've always passed through without deaths and almost never worried me enough to add more garlic or herbs to their diet. Once, one chick got bacillary white diarrhea, and I treated it successfully using slippery elm bark powder, but that's it. Raw garlic takes care of most problems when fed as a staple, one clove per bird per day. Kelp takes care of most other problems when fed as a staple, one pinch per bird per day. Herbs seem to take care of most of the rest of any potential problems. Just keeping them naturally healthy does most of my work for me.

I don't practice biosecurity because the weakest must die so the best can pass on their genes. I guess the quarantine I use as birds bond to the place, so I can integrate them peacefully, counts as biosecurity, maybe. But I use the same cages for chicks and convalescents, lol... All my birds free range together. I expose them to new diseases whenever I encounter them so they can add to their 'repertoire' of immunities. So far, so good. I expect at one point I may lose birds to this method of keeping but while I keep them as bolstered as possible through diet, they seem to take everything 'on the chin'.

Interesting article in the British newspaper the Daily Mail recently saw scientists blaming antibiotic-fed chickens for thousands of human deaths per year, since the strain of E.Coli the chooks were being medicated for became stronger (as man made antibiotics cause 'bugs' to become) and then cross-infected humans. How can everyone use antibiotics for everything like there's no tomorrow and not figure they're helping breed the superbugs that will decimate flocks everywhere? Strange thinking.

 

[aoxa]

I find a lot of what is mentioned in here is false...

Take it as you will..

The sooner they are on the ground (the earlier the better.. talking day olds here), the less likely they are to develop it. I have raised hundreds of chicks via broody and never had a single case of Cocci. I have had cocci for the first time this year. The heat and humidity this summer was horrific. The main thing is to keep the bedding dry. It does not need to be clean! You want those chicks to develop immunity by exposure. That is how broody raised chicks are less likely to develop it.

Speaking with my AG vet about cocci, he said that the amprolium in the medicated feed is not enough to prevent cocci. Especially if there is an overload in the environment. Usually chicks over 2 weeks are the ones most at risk. Chicks raised with mom pick through her poop and develop the natural immunity to the protozoa. ACV in water helps create an inhostile environment for the coccidia as well. Dirt clods in the brooder work really well if you can not get them to fresh ground at an early age.

I do not feed medicated feed, and this is my first year with an issue. It is running rampant in my area right now due to the heat and humidity as I have said before. Now I am taking better precautions. I am adding dirt clods at day one and using deep litter. So far so good. I hatch out many hundreds of chicks a year.

I don't promote medicated anything.

 

[Triple Willow]

I feed freshly minced raw garlic from the very first feed onwards and have never experienced cocci nor any chick mortality from disease with my chickens. Discounting rare injuries or predator attacks, 100% make it to adulthood from every clutch. I don't vaccinate, don't use man made medications, don't feed pellets or crumble, and don't artificially hatch nor rear chicks. 

I've raised many hundreds with only rare incidences of something 'doing the rounds' and symptoms showing that something's not totally healthy, but they've always passed through without deaths and almost never worried me enough to add more garlic or herbs to their diet. Once, one chick got bacillary white diarrhea, and I treated it successfully using slippery elm bark powder, but that's it. Raw garlic takes care of most problems when fed as a staple, one clove per bird per day. Kelp takes care of most other problems when fed as a staple, one pinch per bird per day. Herbs seem to take care of most of the rest of any potential problems. Just keeping them naturally healthy does most of my work for me. 

I don't practice biosecurity because the weakest must die so the best can pass on their genes. I guess the quarantine I use as birds bond to the place, so I can integrate them peacefully, counts as biosecurity, maybe. But I use the same cages for chicks and convalescents, lol... All my birds free range together. I expose them to new diseases whenever I encounter them so they can add to their 'repertoire' of immunities. So far, so good. I expect at one point I may lose birds to this method of keeping but while I keep them as bolstered as possible through diet, they seem to take everything 'on the chin'.

Interesting article in the British newspaper the Daily Mail recently saw scientists blaming antibiotic-fed chickens for thousands of human deaths per year, since the strain of E.Coli the chooks were being medicated for became stronger (as man made antibiotics cause 'bugs' to become) and then cross-infected humans. How can everyone use antibiotics for everything like there's no tomorrow and not figure they're helping breed the superbugs that will decimate flocks everywhere? Strange thinking. 

I bet that was a very interesting article. It is surprising that "scientists" will finally admit that! I agree, I do my very best to avoid antibiotics (and other medications) myself. Garlic is a natural antibiotic that does build the immune system. Feeding garlic consistantly, do you think it has any affect on the taste of your bird's eggs? Do you eat raw garlic yourself? I did eat it in the past but stopped. I was chopping up some for my birds a couple weeks ago and was thinking that I need to start back. It is especially a good idea during the winter to help prevent colds and flu. No doubt it is excellent for birds too.

 

[Triple Willow]

I find a lot of what is mentioned in here is false... 

Take it as you will..

The sooner they are on the ground (the earlier the better.. talking day olds here), the less likely they are to develop it. I have raised hundreds of chicks via broody and never had a single case of Cocci. I have had cocci for the first time this year. The heat and humidity this summer was horrific. The main thing is to keep the bedding dry. It does not need to be clean! You want those chicks to develop immunity by exposure. That is how broody raised chicks are less likely to develop it. 

Speaking with my AG vet about cocci, he said that the amprolium in the medicated feed is not enough to prevent cocci. Especially if there is an overload in the environment. Usually chicks over 2 weeks are the ones most at risk. Chicks raised with mom pick through her poop and develop the natural immunity to the protozoa. ACV in water helps create an inhostile environment for the coccidia as well. Dirt clods in the brooder work really well if you can not get them to fresh ground at an early age. 

I do not feed medicated feed, and this is my first year with an issue. It is running rampant in my area right now due to the heat and humidity as I have said before. Now I am taking better precautions. I am adding dirt clods at day one and using deep litter. So far so good. I hatch out many hundreds of chicks a year. 

I don't promote medicated anything.

Great post, great information. It is always so good to here from you experienced folks! I love reading posts from someone like you and the above poster, folks "who have done it" successfully. I have learned a lot from people like you and hope to learn much more. Thanks!

 

[mithious]

I LOVE hearing from all of you across the pond!!!! Thanks so much for adding to this discussion. Just so you know, the medicated feed here is not an antibiotic. It is corrid, and in small amounts, meant to attempt to help the young chooks build an immunity to cocci...corrid is a thiamine blocker, which is what the cocci feed on in their gut and intestines. Some feed it, some don't.

I agree 100% that raising babies with a broody is the BEST way to go and herbs are natures way of getting rid of diseases. That being said. I am raising my first ever, hatchery lot of baby chooks, and am seeing a huge difference between them and the breeder bred chooks we USED to raise. Whether this is due to a genetic problem, or just a different age and more parasites and diseases, I don't know. All I know for sure is, we did NOT artificially brood baby chooks, back when I was working with them and ours were from reputable breeders. Our broody chooks raised ALL the young, if Momma chook chucked out an egg off the nest she was sitting, we chucked it in the trash. If she rejected a baby chook, we culled it, immediately. I do not EVER, remember having diseases and parasites in our flocks, EVER.

We also had a closed flock, but never practiced biosecurity than either.

I raised my own children with holistic methods, grew my own medicinal herbs, and made my own tinctures for my own kids. We fed our chooks from kitchen scraps, free ranged, and added what feed the did need, especially in the winter, as we lived in a very cold, snowy area, so the chooks did not free range during the winter months. Then again, the feed had no GMO products back then, nor all the other junk that is now in the feed.

There is MUCH to be said for the "old method" which is what you all, across the pond, are basically saying!!!

Thanks again for your knowledge and imput. It's always great to hear how you all are doing and what successes you are having!!!

I am going back to the breeder bred chooks myself, next spring, and plan to have my chooks raise their own young, as nature intended! This hatchery lot, will be fazed out and will NOT propagate!!!! No more production chooks for this gal!

OH, and I am NOT saying that I will have NO problems just because I am going with breeder chooks, just that, I see a difference and personally prefer the reputable breeder bred chooks!

 

[aoxa]

I LOVE hearing from all of you across the pond!!!! Thanks so much for adding to this discussion. Just so you know, the medicated feed here is not an antibiotic. It is corrid, and in small amounts, meant to attempt to help the young chooks build an immunity to cocci...corrid is a thiamine blocker, which is what the cocci feed on in their gut and intestines. Some feed it, some don't.

I agree 100% that raising babies with a broody is the BEST way to go and herbs are natures way of getting rid of diseases. That being said. I am raising my first ever, hatchery lot of baby chooks, and am seeing a huge difference between them and the breeder bred chooks we USED to raise. Whether this is due to a genetic problem, or just a different age and more parasites and diseases, I don't know. All I know for sure is, we did NOT artificially brood baby chooks, back when I was working with them and ours were from reputable breeders. Our broody chooks raised ALL the young, if Momma chook chucked out an egg off the nest she was sitting, we chucked it in the trash. If she rejected a baby chook, we culled it, immediately. I do not EVER, remember having diseases and parasites in our flocks, EVER.

We also had a closed flock, but never practiced biosecurity than either.

I raised my own children with holistic methods, grew my own medicinal herbs, and made my own tinctures for my own kids. We fed our chooks from kitchen scraps, free ranged, and added what feed the did need, especially in the winter, as we lived in a very cold, snowy area, so the chooks did not free range during the winter months. Then again, the feed had no GMO products back then, nor all the other junk that is now in the feed.

There is MUCH to be said for the "old method" which is what you all, across the pond, are basically saying!!!

Thanks again for your knowledge and imput. It's always great to hear how you all are doing and what successes you are having!!!

I am going back to the breeder bred chooks myself, next spring, and plan to have my chooks raise their own young, as nature intended! This hatchery lot, will be fazed out and will NOT propagate!!!! No more production chooks for this gal!

OH, and I am NOT saying that I will have NO problems just because I am going with breeder chooks, just that, I see a difference and personally prefer the reputable breeder bred chooks!

Thiamine is needed for the chooks to grow properly. Birds fed medicated feed can often exhibit signs of failure to thrive because of it.

I've witnessed it a few times myself when I fed medicated feed. I never liked the idea of it, but it is what you do.. At least what everyone had me thinking was necessary.

Trust in the way you used to do things. Chickens have survived thousands of years without medicated feed. They do not need it.

Hatchery birds have their merits, and many do brood their own chicks and are very healthy, but in terms of breed standards they just don't measure up.

:

"Polyneuritis in birds represents the later stages of a thiamine deficiency, probably caused by buildup of the intermediates of carbohydrate metabolism. In the initial stages of deficiency, lethargy and head tremors may be noted. A marked decrease in appetite is also seen in birds fed a thiamine-deficient diet. Poultry are also susceptible to neuromuscular problems, resulting in impaired digestion, general weakness, star-gazing, and frequent convulsions.

"Polyneuritis may be seen in mature birds ~3 wk after they are fed a thiamine-deficient diet. As the deficiency progresses to the legs, wings, and neck, birds may sit on flexed legs and draw back their heads in a star-gazing position. Retraction of the head is due to paralysis of the anterior neck muscles. Soon after this stage, chickens lose the ability to stand or sit upright and topple to the floor, where they may lie with heads still retracted. Thiamine deficiency may also lead to a decrease in body temperature and respiratory rate. Testicular degeneration may be noted, and the heart may show slight atrophy. Birds consuming a thiamine-deficient diet soon show severe anorexia. They lose all interest in feed and will not resume eating unless given thiamine. If a severe deficiency has developed, thiamine must be force-fed or injected to induce eating."

In young chicks, the “splay leg” condition can sometimes be attributed to a thiamine deficiency if the chick has not been kept on a slippery surface. Now, that is not to say that feeding medicated chick feed will cause a thiamine deficiency, but unfortunately it did in one of my own chicks (that quickly recovered after being taken off medicated feed and having vitamin B1 supplements in the water).

In short, your chicks will be far better off if you diligently practice good, natural methods. Use that U-ACV, feed fermented feed with good, live cultures and quarantine any new birds brought onto your property for a minimum of 10 days. If you’re doing all of that, chances are you won’t ever have to worry about most of those scary-sounding diseases you read about on the internet!

 

[mithious]

X2

 

[cluckcluckluke]

I find a lot of what is mentioned in here is false...

Take it as you will..

The sooner they are on the ground (the earlier the better.. talking day olds here), the less likely they are to develop it. I have raised hundreds of chicks via broody and never had a single case of Cocci. I have had cocci for the first time this year. The heat and humidity this summer was horrific. The main thing is to keep the bedding dry. It does not need to be clean! You want those chicks to develop immunity by exposure. That is how broody raised chicks are less likely to develop it.

Speaking with my AG vet about cocci, he said that the amprolium in the medicated feed is not enough to prevent cocci. Especially if there is an overload in the environment. Usually chicks over 2 weeks are the ones most at risk. Chicks raised with mom pick through her poop and develop the natural immunity to the protozoa. ACV in water helps create an inhostile environment for the coccidia as well. Dirt clods in the brooder work really well if you can not get them to fresh ground at an early age.

I do not feed medicated feed, and this is my first year with an issue. It is running rampant in my area right now due to the heat and humidity as I have said before. Now I am taking better precautions. I am adding dirt clods at day one and using deep litter. So far so good. I hatch out many hundreds of chicks a year.

I don't promote medicated anything.

I am more swayed by what you are saying here Aoxa, thanks.
I too am more of the mentality that chicks in the "wild" never had saw dust floors, bedding, heat lamps and all the rest of it, yes they have a mother to prtect them, but they are still out side in the elements ( to a certain extent.lol. ).
If you shelter them for to long then they will grow to fit that environment and when you finally let them out they haven't built up a resistance, so there for are more susceptible to disease.
As you say, broody hens are out of the nest at like day 2 or 3, running around in dirt and muck with their chicks!!

I am just trying to avoid getting cocci so that in the future I am not having to keep them off the ground in a little cage till like they are POL because my ground is infected.

 

[aoxa]

I am more swayed by what you are saying here Aoxa, thanks.
I too am more of the mentality that chicks in the "wild" never had saw dust floors, bedding, heat lamps and all the rest of it, yes they have a mother to prtect them, but they are still out side in the elements ( to a certain extent.lol. ).
If you shelter them for to long then they will grow to fit that environment and when you finally let them out they haven't built up a resistance, so there for are more susceptible to disease.
As you say, broody hens are out of the nest at like day 2 or 3, running around in dirt and muck with their chicks!!

I am just trying to avoid getting cocci so that in the future I am not having to keep them off the ground in a little cage till like they are POL because my ground is infected.

Don't let your ground get too over worked by the birds and you should be just fine. I never run out of grass/pasture for my birds. Their manure is not condensed to one spot so it wouldn't get out of control. Right now I have 50 chicks being raised by broodies at this very moment.

Cocci is not the end of the world either. If they do develop it, Corid starts working really fast. Always have that on hand. Even if you do feed medicated starter.

Here's to hoping you never have to experience Cocci, but if you do, I know you will get it under control.

The chicks that I had develop it all did so inside the brooder. This alone tells me I should have exposed them earlier.
Coccidia is everywhere. It is the overload that is what you want to avoid.