Cochin breeding, genetics, and showing

[nicalandia]

Quote:
what is your goals? Lacing? Spangling?

I'm breeding Birchen Cochins.

That's All? then just use Birchen(Er) there is no right or wrong on how their natural pattern comes out looking as its a mistery, Birchen is just Silver and Er on a wildtype background(meaning everother gene are wildtype base)

 

[lilcrow]

Quote:
OK, thanks for that piece of the puzzle, so what are sjarvis and Tom referring to when they talk about introducing the Birchen color, and the incomplete pattern, specifically on the hens. I think I understand what Tom is talking about, the "pattern" of the hackles is not clear and crisp on the girls, i.e., feathers that do not have complete lacing on them, but is there something about the roo that is missing or lacking color-wise, and how would I go about introducing the Birchen color?

Nancy, here's my very uneducated opinion. Lord know I'm having enough trouble with my own Golden Laced. First off, there is no such thing as 'Birchen Color". They are called Birchen because they are the most basic color variety found on the Birchen allele. Because of this, as soon as breeders start crossing in other varieties, especially those found on other alleles, they start messing with how the alleles and genes interact with one another.

Just like some genes are more dominant than others, the same is true of the alleles.

As Birchen is the most basic color variety, you don't want to be adding anything in. Chances are, they have something added in prior generations that may be giving you fits. I think you need to be breeding out, not breeding in.

Either continue with what you have, and cull heavily, or find more Birchens to breed in to complement/improve what you already have, and continue to cull.

Again, some of the best advice I read a couple of years ago was not to breed to the standard; rather you should cull to the standard.

Argh!!!

Thank you Gail, I'm going to have to go back to Genetics 101, refresh myself and fill in some gaping holes I have in my self education. I'm seeing that I don't have a good enough understanding of alleles, so I'll fill that hole. That said, it really makes my head spin to find out that Birchen is not a color. You're so right about something having been bred into them in the past. There are two hens that I'm pretty sure come from the Black/Columbian cross. I don't mean they are the results of that cross, but that is their origin several generations ago. The other hen comes from a Birchen/Mottled cross and she IS the result of that cross. She came to me as a lovely Birchen pullet and matured into a gorgeous Mottled hen.

She's a story for another time, I just want to understand the other 2 hens and how to best breed my particular birds. I got them actually because they are slightly understated as Birchen color goes. My roo is very nice, but I don't want any heavier lacing on what he is bred to for fear of getting too much on the offspring. In looking for the more subtle markings on the hens, is that how I ended up with the Birchen look-a-like rather than actual Birchen color.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
Nancy, here's my very uneducated opinion. Lord know I'm having enough trouble with my own Golden Laced. First off, there is no such thing as 'Birchen Color". They are called Birchen because they are the most basic color variety found on the Birchen allele. Because of this, as soon as breeders start crossing in other varieties, especially those found on other alleles, they start messing with how the alleles and genes interact with one another.

Just like some genes are more dominant than others, the same is true of the alleles.

As Birchen is the most basic color variety, you don't want to be adding anything in. Chances are, they have something added in prior generations that may be giving you fits. I think you need to be breeding out, not breeding in.

Either continue with what you have, and cull heavily, or find more Birchens to breed in to complement/improve what you already have, and continue to cull.

Again, some of the best advice I read a couple of years ago was not to breed to the standard; rather you should cull to the standard.

Argh!!!

Thank you Gail, I'm going to have to go back to Genetics 101, refresh myself and fill in some gaping holes I have in my self education. I'm seeing that I don't have a good enough understanding of alleles, so I'll fill that hole. That said, it really makes my head spin to find out that Birchen is not a color. You're so right about something having been bred into them in the past. There are two hens that I'm pretty sure come from the Black/Columbian cross. I don't mean they are the results of that cross, but that is their origin several generations ago. The other hen comes from a Birchen/Mottled cross and she IS the result of that cross. She came to me as a lovely Birchen pullet and matured into a gorgeous Mottled hen.

She's a story for another time, I just want to understand the other 2 hens and how to best breed my particular birds. I got them actually because they are slightly understated as Birchen color goes. My roo is very nice, but I don't want any heavier lacing on what he is bred to for fear of getting too much on the offspring. In looking for the more subtle markings on the hens, is that how I ended up with the Birchen look-a-like rather than actual Birchen color.

Columbian as Co does not have an effect on Birchen...

show us the pics please

 

[Black Cochin Bantams]

Quote:
Argh!!!

Thank you Gail, I'm going to have to go back to Genetics 101, refresh myself and fill in some gaping holes I have in my self education. I'm seeing that I don't have a good enough understanding of alleles, so I'll fill that hole. That said, it really makes my head spin to find out that Birchen is not a color. You're so right about something having been bred into them in the past. There are two hens that I'm pretty sure come from the Black/Columbian cross. I don't mean they are the results of that cross, but that is their origin several generations ago. The other hen comes from a Birchen/Mottled cross and she IS the result of that cross. She came to me as a lovely Birchen pullet and matured into a gorgeous Mottled hen.

She's a story for another time, I just want to understand the other 2 hens and how to best breed my particular birds. I got them actually because they are slightly understated as Birchen color goes. My roo is very nice, but I don't want any heavier lacing on what he is bred to for fear of getting too much on the offspring. In looking for the more subtle markings on the hens, is that how I ended up with the Birchen look-a-like rather than actual Birchen color.

Columbian as Co does not have an effect on Birchen...

I am not getting it. Coluumbian does not have an effect on Birchen. I crossed a Columbian Cock onto a Black pullet and got lots of Birchen (hatchery quality as far as color) chicks. I have culled all but one. Will possibly breed back to Columbian next year.

show us the pics please

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
Columbian as Co does not have an effect on Birchen...

I am not getting it. Coluumbian does not have an effect on Birchen. I crossed a Columbian Cock onto a Black pullet and got lots of Birchen (hatchery quality as far as color) chicks. I have culled all but one. Will possibly breed back to Columbian next year.

show us the pics please


then the Black hen you used was not based on Extended Black(E) or Based on Birchen(Er) Columbian has NO effect on Extended Black

 

[Black Cochin Bantams]

Quote:

then the Black hen you used was not based on Extended Black(E) or Based on Birchen(Er) Columbian has NO effect on Extended Black

Pictures following. The pullet I bred to the Columbian is from a line of blacks that goes back over 50 years. I was told that the breeding would result in Birchen with incomplete lacing by a knowledgeable experienced breeder.

The pullet I used was out of a Best of show Black hen. I have made no brought in no new bloodline in the last 8 years.
Craig

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
then the Black hen you used was not based on Extended Black(E) or Based on Birchen(Er) Columbian has NO effect on Extended Black

Pictures following. The pullet I bred to the Columbian is from a line of blacks that goes back over 50 years. I was told that the breeding would result in Birchen with incomplete lacing by a knowledgeable experienced breeder.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/49643_09.jpg
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/49643_0010.jpg

The pullet I used was out of a Best of show Black hen. I have made no brought in no new bloodline in the last 8 years.
Craig

well that's not a Black bird, thats a Birchen bird, birchen is dominant to just about everything like eb and Co, which is the genetic make up of Columbian..

 

[Coopa Cabana]

Quote:
then the Black hen you used was not based on Extended Black(E) or Based on Birchen(Er) Columbian has NO effect on Extended Black

Pictures following. The pullet I bred to the Columbian is from a line of blacks that goes back over 50 years. I was told that the breeding would result in Birchen with incomplete lacing by a knowledgeable experienced breeder.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/49643_09.jpg
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/49643_0010.jpg

The pullet I used was out of a Best of show Black hen. I have made no brought in no new bloodline in the last 8 years.
Craig

Columbians are based on the eb (brown) allele. eb is recesive to ER and E, but I'm not sure you should cross back to Columbian again - I would think the eb would become dominant again, as they would be heterozygous for eb, having two copies.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
Pictures following. The pullet I bred to the Columbian is from a line of blacks that goes back over 50 years. I was told that the breeding would result in Birchen with incomplete lacing by a knowledgeable experienced breeder.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/49643_09.jpg
https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/49643_0010.jpg

The pullet I used was out of a Best of show Black hen. I have made no brought in no new bloodline in the last 8 years.
Craig

Columbians are based on the eb (brown) allele. eb is recesive to ER and E, but I'm not sure you should cross back to Columbian again - I would think the eb would become dominant again, as they would be heterozygous for eb, having two copies.

well if he crosses back to columbian most hatches will be columbian as they will be homozygous for eb....BUT a few of them will still be Er/eb and that will make them Birchen, but why? dont' know what you gain by doing that, the extra mossines?(white lacing on black background)

 

[Black Cochin Bantams]

Quote:
Columbians are based on the eb (brown) allele. eb is recesive to ER and E, but I'm not sure you should cross back to Columbian again - I would think the eb would become dominant again, as they would be heterozygous for eb, having two copies.

well if he crosses back to columbian most hatches will be columbian as they will be homozygous for eb....BUT a few of them will still be Er/eb and that will make them Birchen, but why? dont' know what you gain by doing that, the extra mossines?(white lacing on black background)

The point is I am trying to improve type on Columbians by bringing in type from Blacks. That is why I made the cross. Hoping to improve type. Next year will be trying the outcross using a Mottled male on a good Columbian hen. Again to try to improve type.