Color genetics thread.

[Wappoke]

@Wappoke

Let me start by saying that I love how well you explain genetics.

My Buff Laced Polish bred with a blue easter egger (when she jumped the coop).

The down on the half Polish chick is less yellow (almost white) compared to the down on the Leghorn's chicks. As far as I know the Polish does not carry silver (he can't right? Because if he had silver it would be dominant over the red that got diluted to buff by the dominant white gene. Correct me if I'm wrong). I don't think that this chick's mom has silver, based on the other chicks I've hatched from her eggs.

Here is my question - How is the dominant white in buff laced Polish different than the dominant white in a White Leghorn, genetically? If there is no difference, why does the down look white instead of yellow?

One of the two black w/red chicks hatched from eggs laid by the same hen.

Buff laced polish are as you stated not silver. If they were silver, the bird would be almost completely white. All the buff on the bird would be replaced with white if it carried silver.

For grins- lets make a buff and white laced polish chicken. We will start with the base coloration and build the plumage color.

Buff laced polish are brown red ( google brown red oegb for a pic) under the buff lacing. Brown reds are birchen (crow wing) at the E locus and carry sex-linked gold. The brown red phenotype (variety) must be altered by additional genes to get a buff with white lacing.

Two powerful restrictors are added to the genetic makeup ( columbian and dark brown) - most of the black plumage is removed and you get an almost completely buff/gold ( not buff as in a orpington) bird with some black in the tail. The red color in the bird is changed to a buff color ( dark buff/gold) by the restrictors.

Now melanotic and pattern are added to the genetic makeup to make the buff/gold bird have a single lace on many of the feathers. So now the bird is buff/gold and has a single black lace on most of the feathers. The two restrictors also help form the lace. The dark brown pushes lacing ( for the lack of a better way to say it) into the tail of the bird.

The last set of genes added to the bird is dominant white. Dominant white changes the black lace to white and now you have a white laced and buff bird.


I do not know exactly why one chick's down would be lighter than anothers down. No research or anecdotal evidence is coming to mind that would allow me to say this is causing the effect.



Some information to think about.

Sometimes down color is controlled by genes that only effect down color and do not take part in producing adult plumage. It could be a down color controlling gene. Down color can also be effected by the genes that produce adult plumage. The E locus alleles are very effective at controlling down color. Then other genes in the bird can alter the E locus down color.

 

[Chicken5555]

Quote:
Awesome, thank you! This is very helpful.

 

[Chicken5555]

Buff laced polish are as you stated not silver. If they were silver, the bird would be almost completely white. All the buff on the bird would be replaced with white if it carried silver.

For grins- lets make a buff and white laced polish chicken. We will start with the base coloration and build the plumage color.

Buff laced polish are brown red ( google brown red oegb for a pic) under the buff lacing. Brown reds are birchen (crow wing) at the E locus and carry sex-linked gold. The brown red phenotype (variety) must be altered by additional genes to get a buff with white lacing.

Two powerful restrictors are added to the genetic makeup ( columbian and dark brown) - most of the black plumage is removed and you get an almost completely buff bird with some black in the tail. The red color in the bird is changed to a buff color by the restrictors.

Now melanotic and pattern are added to the genetic makeup to make the red bird have a single lace on many of the feathers. So now the bird is red and has a single black lace on most of the feathers. The two restrictors also help form the lace. The dark brown pushes lacing ( for the lack of a better way to say it) into the tail of the bird.

The last set of genes added to the bird is dominant white. Dominant white changes the black lace to white and now you have a white laced and buff bird.


I do not know exactly why one chick's down would be lighter than anothers down. No research or anecdotal evidence is coming to mind that would allow me to say this is causing the effect.



Some information to think about.

Sometimes down color is controlled by genes that only effect down color and do not take part in producing adult plumage. It could be a down color controlling gene. Down color can also be effected by the genes that produce adult plumage. The E locus alleles are very effective at controlling down color. Then other genes in the bird can alter the E locus down color.

Oh, so it's the columbian and dark brown genes change the chicken's color from brown red to buff.
What would a Chicken look like if it had all of the genes you mentioned except for dominant white? Would it be a buff colored chicken with black lacing? Or am I off the mark here?

 

[Wappoke]

Oh, so it's the columbian and dark brown genes change the chicken's color from brown red to buff.
What would a Chicken look like if it had all of the genes you mentioned except for dominant white? Would it be a buff colored chicken with black lacing? Or am I off the mark here?

yes it would be a buff color with single black lacing that extended into the tail

 

[Chicken5555]

Quote:
That would be very pretty. What is the likely hood of getting a chicken like that if I breed an F1 buff/gold polish cross back to the gold parent? Is it even possible?

 

[summerb123]

 

[Wappoke]

That would be very pretty. What is the likely hood of getting a chicken like that if I breed an F1 buff/gold polish cross back to the gold parent? Is it even possible?

For practicality, I will say no, the gold parent does not have the correct genes to produce buff offspring when crossed with a bird that is a hybrid. The hybrid itself is problematic.

Your F1 may carry blue, is most likely extended black/birchen at the E locus, may or may not carry two columbian, but only carry one dark brown, carry one dominant white, carry at least one pattern gene but could carry two, and most likely carries two melanotic. Add to that that the hybrid males have a strong possibility of carrying silver.

The gene mix and possibilities makes the cross difficult to predict. The math can be done to make a prediction but the probabilities are not on your side.

The genes that are epistatic to black make the cross problematic. For example, dominant white is epistatic ( to black plumage) and in the mix- approximately half of the offspring will have their black plumage changed to white. Throw in the possibility of blue and the likely hood is diminished even more.

The presence of the Extended black allele in the offspring is also a problem- approximately half of the offspring will carry extended black- this fact will favor a large number of hypostatic black chickens and epistatic black chickens.

If the hybrid carries silver- approximately half of the females will be silver and not gold. Another reduction in the number of the possible gold/buff offspring.

Not a good cross.

 

[Chicken5555]

@Wappoke I'm sorry. I should have been more specific with that last question after talking about the easter egger/polish cross. I would have made the same assumption you did, as vague as that question was.

I meant to ask if it would be possible to get a buff laced polish with black lacing if one were to breed the following...
(first breeding) gold laced polish rooster and a buff laced polish hen (F1)
(second breeding) F1 hen back to the gold laced polish rooster

Could any of the chicks from the second breeding be buff color with black lacing?

 

[draye]

Quote:
I done a cross of a Buff Laced Polish over a Golden Laced Polish hen. Result was all f Laced offspring, not sure now how many there were 4 or 5 I think. I was going to cross a male offspring back to the mama but I got off track and never done that, then sold off all my Polish. I'm no genetics expert though so maybe if more were hatched then the result may have been different.

 

[junebuggena]

@Wappoke I'm sorry. I should have been more specific with that last question after talking about the easter egger/polish cross. I would have made the same assumption you did, as vague as that question was.

I meant to ask if it would be possible to get a buff laced polish with black lacing if one were to breed the following...
(first breeding) gold laced polish rooster and a buff laced polish hen (F1)
(second breeding) F1 hen back to the gold laced polish rooster

Could any of the chicks from the second breeding be buff color with black lacing?

Gold laced to Buff laced will produce Buff laced chicks. If those chicks are then bred back to the Gold laced parent, then about 50% will be buff laced and 50% will be Gold laced. The only thing you are changing with that breeding would be the dominant white. All the pattern genes stay the same.