Color Questions

Discussion in 'Exhibition, Genetics, & Breeding to the Standard o' started by draye, Nov 29, 2014.

  1. draye

    draye Overrun With Chickens

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    Since this is the genetics thread:

    Is wheaten, red, mahogany and ginger all part of the wheaten coloration? Caused by the same gene?

    Is there anyway to breed Duckwing out of wheaten?

    What color would you call this?
    [​IMG]

    She looks to be Silver Duckwing, but doesn't have a salmon breast and doesn't' look like she will get one. I cannot see anything that looks like she will get one anyway. She is 8 weeks and 2 days old. Does she still have time to develop a salmon breast?
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2014
  2. 3riverschick

    3riverschick Poultry Lit Chaser

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    Hi,
    Find Marvin ( nicalandia ) on BYC and ask him. He's a human genetics calculator and can answer your questions.
    Best,
    Karen
     
  3. draye

    draye Overrun With Chickens

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    Yeah, I keep hoping he'll come along.
     
  4. draye

    draye Overrun With Chickens

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    Still waiting for someone to come along.
     
  5. draye

    draye Overrun With Chickens

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    @Nicalandia.

    HELP PLEASE!
     
  6. Henk69

    Henk69 Chillin' With My Peeps

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    wheaten is caused by one mutation on the e-locus/extension gene called ... wheaten.
    mahogany is it's own mutation and causes red.
    Ginger is caused by the mutation Db.

    Some wheaten birds (hens) could carry one or both these dominant mutations without looking all too different, yes, but the wheaten coloration does not need them.

    Duckwing is a genetic term for the non mutated extension gene. A bird that carries both duckwing (e+) and wheaten (e^Wh) shows a bit of both (duckwing with pale centered salmon breast on hens, more red on shoulders), but the Db mutation would help the wheaten to be more dominant, hide the duckwing effects (stippling on the back of the hen). Mahogany (Mh) would be able to restore the salmon breast on such a hen, hiding the wheaten effects.
     
  7. draye

    draye Overrun With Chickens

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    Thanks Henk.
     
  8. nicalandia

    nicalandia Overrun With Chickens

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    when you try to visualize plain old wheaten female without any pattern gene or restrictor think about Salmon Faverolle hens(silver wheaten)
    http://d1j96f25uhu3hg.cloudfront.ne...faverolles/pictures/Salmon-Faverolles-Hen.jpg

    when you try to visualize the Power of Mahogany on a bird without any pattern gene or restrictore, you can think about Dark Brown Leghor pullets(based on eb/eb)
    http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/4/4a/500x1000px-LL-4a2d38b0_13122011113.jpeg you can also google Dark Brown leghorn rooster

    now Ginger the name of a phenotype on the Old English Game, Ginger OEG males are Black Tailed Reds.. so google Ginger OEG and you will visualize them, their genetic make up is more complex, they are wiltype e+/e+ Db/Db..

    now if you want to know how eWh/eWh wheaten, Mahogany and Db(ginger) looks on a bird? well google Red Orpington.
    http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx148/greenfirefarms/redorps458_zps3860d629.jpg

    .. or how Wheaten and Mahogany(and a bunch of other red enhancers) look with Columbian as restrictor instead of Db, then google Rhode Island Reds..


    as for you bird.. she looks like eb/eb with Pattern gene..
     
  9. draye

    draye Overrun With Chickens

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    Quote: So eb/eb is?

    New pictures:
    [​IMG] So what color is this? I was saying Blue (under color is blue) Mahogany with (what I call the duckwing marking {pattern} ) of the classic Easter Egger pattern.

    [​IMG] And, what is this color? I was also saying Blue Mahogany. Although the red is a little redder looking than the one above, without the duckwing pattern.
     
  10. CanuckBock

    CanuckBock THE Village Ijit

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    Heel low:

    My dear fellow... [​IMG]

    One must build upon knowledge...to be able to roll before we can crawl, crawl before we walk, walk before we run...

    [​IMG]
    Not sure about you...but if I tried to run before I could crawl...I'd be doing alot of face plants and digging gravel outta places maybe I shoulda refrained from exposing myself to...if you catch my drift and don't decide to take it to offence!
    [​IMG]

    I have been studying colour genetics in canines, ovines, and poultry only since 2000...when it became an "in my face" endeavour with one of my ACDogs; red speckled from two blue, black and tans, HyBlade.


    While I will NEVER be taken in on the fallacy of that statement, "build the barn and then paint it," I will say "you can build the barn, but if you don't have the tint, you'll never paint her right." Understanding colour genetics is good but it is not the be all to end all. A master craftsman measures twice and cuts once, assembles the structure complete, only to disassemble it to paint it entirely...this may be more time consuming but when the barn is assembled in its fully painted form for the second & last time, the entire building will last for what seems like an eternity because every seam, every surface has been properly protected with the paint 'cause you tore it all to pieces to do just that! Quality takes time & effort--if'n it was easy, everyone would be doing it. [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    Hackle feathers from a male Partridge Chantecler - Red and Black...very basic and to the point colours


    Now we know that we have two basic colours in red and black (with white as no pigment). Pretty simple yes?


    Each colour is not produced at the same speed by the bird...red pigments are slower to form than black ones...how can you EVER remember this...why looking at the MDF variety helps...helps me remember anyway! [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
    Vulture Hock on a Booted Bantam chicken breed in the Mille de Fleur (thousands of flowers) variety


    The end of the feather (the tip being the very first thing made) is WHITE...so the genetics of the bird are telling the feather..."NO pigment," so we get WHITE at the end of the feather. Then the genetics tell the bird..."OK...OK...you can have pigments!"...so the first colour or pigment to be expressed on the feather after NO pigment (white) is expressed...you see BLACK...black pigment is faster to be produced on the feather...then the RED pigment shows up...red pigment takes longer to be produced.


    So on these black or red or no pigment feathers...we can have patterns...not just solid self-colours of course.

    Patterns can be expressed in black or red pigments...here are barred/cuckoo feathers...black is called barred or cuckoo (fuzzy fast = cuckoo, and sharp slow = barred)...and red is called Brockbar. Can you say that...BROCKbar...like a chicken hen would..."brock A bar"...LOL [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Black and white Barred or Cuckoo / red and white Brockbar...same pattern is expressed but in different COLOURS


    [​IMG]
    Left is black and right is red -same pattern in different pigments


    Here is another example of chicken patterns in feathers...different colours...

    [​IMG]
    Two chickens; both same ground colour as in red pigment...but laced or marked up with either a black colour or a white colour

    Optical illusion too...the chicken with the black markings looks to have a darker ground...and the chicken with the white markings a lighter ground...but indeed...both grounds are the EXACT same colour! Interesting how markings can mess you up! [​IMG]


    Any pattern like lacing can be expressed in colours like black, blue, chocolate, buff, or white (no colour)....kinda kewl eh?

    Depending on the genetics...

    Like for example the e-series in chickens...it depends how certain colour genetics will be expressed based on what genetics the chicken has in the E series. I think of the e-series like many flavours in soup stocks...be it lamb, beef, chicken, pork, or fish stocks...changes how the additions of things like carrots and onions will tasted based on what the soup stock is made from!

    Here are a few pictures to assist.

    First the eb Brown ...

    [​IMG]
    This chicken (male MDF Booted Bantam) is pure for eb brown.


    Not the chicken that contributed the above feathers...but this hen is eb brown also... [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Can't see the slate down...so we gotta grab the girly and fluff her up to show the grey slate...


    [​IMG]
    She has the grey slate down
    - note the white in her primaries too...this is a single dose of recessive white (leaking and showing itself!)


    I love asking people that have seen a Brahma chicken (the Buff variety does this well...but the Lights are fun too)...so what colour down would these birds have? It being eb Brown...the down colour is spectacular against the upper colour.

    I mush back the outer feathers to reveal the down colour and Kazoom---the grey down is really spectacular!


    [​IMG]
    Buff Bantam Brahma roo


    [​IMG]
    Light Bantam Brahma roo


    Not just the males have the dark down...

    [​IMG]
    Buff Bantam Brahma female

    This female Bantam Buff Brahma just oozes dark down...she has almost an ebony cast to her...even her irises are dark...lays darkish brown eggs too. If you are after "contrast" in a variety...that buff and dark down sure does do that indeed...pretty vivid contrast to each other.

    Knowing that eb Brown in the e-series is going to likely have GREY down sure assists you in knowing a good guess the genetics of some of the birds.

    [​IMG]

    By the colour of the down on this female, I know she is eb Brown in the e-series!

    [​IMG]

    Bantam project Chantecler...she is a sorta "Golden Laced" but then has "multi lacings" too

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Her genetic opposite in the S-series is this hen Pewter...


    [​IMG]
    A silver sorta kinda "pencilled" bantam project Chantecler


    The S-series is gender linked so a female chicken is Silver (S) or she is Gold (s"+")...she can never be impure because she only receives one dose in the S-series--she is Gold (s"+"/-) OR she is Silver (S/-), she never gets two doses. The males chickens get two doses in the S-series and may be pure for Gold (s"+"/s"+") or Silver (S/S) or impure Silver/Gold (S/s"+").

    OK...on to another in the e-series...eWh as in Wheaten.


    [​IMG]
    This chicken (male Buff Chantecler) is pure for eWh Wheaten


    [​IMG]
    Chantelle is eWh/eWh
    She is one of our very first Standard Chanteclers (June 2008)...she is still with us too! Happily ate a treat out of the palm of my hand this morning--not spoilt...NEVER do something like that with them mere bird brains!
    [​IMG]


    Now to mix it on up... [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This chicken (Red Chantecler) is both eWh and eb in the e-series...so impure as in eWh/eb...

    [​IMG]


    Note in the feather samples how the mixed up chicken is both eb brown AND eWh Wheaten...grey slate down AND reddish down.

    [​IMG]

    Some of the feathers look like Wheaten feathers...completely red...some of the feathers look like eb Brown...having some grey slate down...but a bar of the slate in the down...the bottom of the feather is still buffy like the Wheaten ones!


    [​IMG]
    See the grey down on this eWh/eb Red Chantecler?

    Breeds like the Buckeye have this bar of grey slate down mentioned right in their Standard...

    Neato, eh? [​IMG]



    So why bother to understand colour genetics...the oldtimers never had genetics to study until Mendel did all his pea plant experiments and people began to make up these little letters and what not's? Well to me...it is far easier to say, "eb, Pg and Mh" than to have to explain the whole "Partridge" pattern expression to someone--lookit the SOP worded description for the Partridge variety, eh! Recall that hobby names are confusing at the best of times; genetic terms are much more concise!

    We recite the genetic recipes for colour genetics in chickens knowing the wild type (what the Red Junglefowl has going on for colour genetics--suppose to be the chicken's ancestor!) is a given and we only usually say the MUTATIONS (the changes made to the wild type expression - usually wild type has the subscript plus sign as in "+" after the genetic letters) for the differing colour patterns...like Partridge is "eb and Pg and Mh" or eb brown in the e-series with Pg as in Pattern gene and Mh as in Mahogany on a wild type base otherwise. [​IMG]


    The reason one might study colour genetics is to help one do the one project I have on the go...making the large chickens into bantam chickens...in the chicken breed of Chanteclers.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    First cross (F1) is a MESS of rainbow colours...might have been AFRAID had I not had the background in colour genetics to fall back on!


    [​IMG]
    F1 and F2 generations...still a mess of colours AND patterns...yikes!


    [​IMG]
    F3 Generation...getting very close to a self white bird! Yah!


    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    F4 generation

    This generation is starting to segregate to White, Partridge, and Buff varieties in a bantam or smaller form of the Breed...Eureka! Sorta getting closer and closer to success...Yes? Taken ten years or so but time flies when you are having FUN, right?

    Hope this post has been helpful! [​IMG]

    Whoops...there's a shiny...gotta go!!!!!!!!!!!!! [​IMG]

    Doggone & Chicken UP!

    Tara Lee Higgins
    Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada
     
    3 people like this.

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