Color Questions

[draye]

Since this is the genetics thread:

Is wheaten, red, mahogany and ginger all part of the wheaten coloration? Caused by the same gene?

Is there anyway to breed Duckwing out of wheaten?

What color would you call this?

She looks to be Silver Duckwing, but doesn't have a salmon breast and doesn't' look like she will get one. I cannot see anything that looks like she will get one anyway. She is 8 weeks and 2 days old. Does she still have time to develop a salmon breast?

 

[3riverschick]

Hi,
Find Marvin ( nicalandia ) on BYC and ask him. He's a human genetics calculator and can answer your questions.
Best,
Karen

 

[draye]

Hi,
 Find Marvin ( nicalandia ) on BYC and ask him. He's a human genetics calculator and can answer your questions.
 Best,
 Karen

Yeah, I keep hoping he'll come along.

 

[draye]

Still waiting for someone to come along.

 

[draye]

@Nicalandia.

HELP PLEASE!

 

[Henk69]

Since this is the genetics thread:

Is wheaten, red, mahogany and ginger all part of the wheaten coloration? Caused by the same gene?

Is there anyway to breed Duckwing out of wheaten?

What color would you call this?


She looks to be Silver Duckwing, but doesn't have a salmon breast and doesn't' look like she will get one. I cannot see anything that looks like she will get one anyway. She is 8 weeks and 2 days old. Dies she still have time to develop a salmon breast?

wheaten is caused by one mutation on the e-locus/extension gene called ... wheaten.
mahogany is it's own mutation and causes red.
Ginger is caused by the mutation Db.

Some wheaten birds (hens) could carry one or both these dominant mutations without looking all too different, yes, but the wheaten coloration does not need them.

Duckwing is a genetic term for the non mutated extension gene. A bird that carries both duckwing (e+) and wheaten (e^Wh) shows a bit of both (duckwing with pale centered salmon breast on hens, more red on shoulders), but the Db mutation would help the wheaten to be more dominant, hide the duckwing effects (stippling on the back of the hen). Mahogany (Mh) would be able to restore the salmon breast on such a hen, hiding the wheaten effects.

 

[draye]

wheaten is caused by one mutation on the e-locus/extension gene called ... wheaten.
mahogany is it's own mutation and causes red.
Ginger is caused by the mutation Db.

Some wheaten birds (hens) could carry one or both these dominant mutations without looking all too different, yes, but the wheaten coloration does not need them.

Duckwing is a genetic term for the non mutated extension gene. A bird that carries both duckwing (e+) and wheaten (e^Wh) shows a bit of both (duckwing with pale centered salmon breast on hens, more red on shoulders), but the Db mutation would help the wheaten to be more dominant, hide the duckwing effects (stippling on the back of the hen). Mahogany (Mh) would be able to restore the salmon breast on such a hen, hiding the wheaten effects.

Thanks Henk.

 

[nicalandia]

Since this is the genetics thread:

Is wheaten, red, mahogany and ginger all part of the wheaten coloration? Caused by the same gene?

Is there anyway to breed Duckwing out of wheaten?

What color would you call this?


She looks to be Silver Duckwing, but doesn't have a salmon breast and doesn't' look like she will get one. I cannot see anything that looks like she will get one anyway. She is 8 weeks and 2 days old. Does she still have time to develop a salmon breast?

when you try to visualize plain old wheaten female without any pattern gene or restrictor think about Salmon Faverolle hens(silver wheaten)
http://d1j96f25uhu3hg.cloudfront.ne...faverolles/pictures/Salmon-Faverolles-Hen.jpg

when you try to visualize the Power of Mahogany on a bird without any pattern gene or restrictore, you can think about Dark Brown Leghor pullets(based on eb/eb)
http://cdn.backyardchickens.com/4/4a/500x1000px-LL-4a2d38b0_13122011113.jpeg you can also google Dark Brown leghorn rooster

now Ginger the name of a phenotype on the Old English Game, Ginger OEG males are Black Tailed Reds.. so google Ginger OEG and you will visualize them, their genetic make up is more complex, they are wiltype e+/e+ Db/Db..

now if you want to know how eWh/eWh wheaten, Mahogany and Db(ginger) looks on a bird? well google Red Orpington.
http://i750.photobucket.com/albums/xx148/greenfirefarms/redorps458_zps3860d629.jpg

.. or how Wheaten and Mahogany(and a bunch of other red enhancers) look with Columbian as restrictor instead of Db, then google Rhode Island Reds..


as for you bird.. she looks like eb/eb with Pattern gene..

 

[draye]

Quote: So eb/eb is?

New pictures:
So what color is this? I was saying Blue (under color is blue) Mahogany with (what I call the duckwing marking {pattern} ) of the classic Easter Egger pattern.

And, what is this color? I was also saying Blue Mahogany. Although the red is a little redder looking than the one above, without the duckwing pattern.

 

[CanuckBock]

Heel low:

My dear fellow...

One must build upon knowledge...to be able to roll before we can crawl, crawl before we walk, walk before we run...

Not sure about you...but if I tried to run before I could crawl...I'd be doing alot of face plants and digging gravel outta places maybe I shoulda refrained from exposing myself to...if you catch my drift and don't decide to take it to offence!

I have been studying colour genetics in canines, ovines, and poultry only since 2000...when it became an "in my face" endeavour with one of my ACDogs; red speckled from two blue, black and tans, HyBlade.

That there are two kinds of red...autosomal and gender linked.

Some of the more commonly known gender linked genetics in chooks are:
- Barred or Cuckoo - B-series
- Chocolate - Choco-series
- Dwarfism or Bantam; dw - recessive bantam | rg - recessive bantam | Z - dominant bantam
- Id inhibitor of dermal melanin
- K - K-series - late feathering
- Female Lethal; Bernier Lethal | Prenatal Lethal | Lady Killer
- Silver / gold - S-series; Silver plumage / gold plumage
- White skin / yellow skin - W-series


That you may spend as little time or as much as you like studying colour genetics only to find out that the next research paper you read blows what you thought to be the gospel all to heck! Be prepared to UNlearn certain things...LMBO


Colour genetics is as easy as you want it to be...and as complex too. I suppose it's complicated my Dear Man! Complicated until you get some of your ducks all in a row...FTD!

Near enough now to Christmas...choose one of the following publications to purchase and consider it a Christmas gift to your further learning...an investment in your self in a very sensible good place to start:

- Genetics of Chicken Colours, By Sigrid Van Dort, David Hancox. Copyright 1990, ISBN 978 90 6674 404 2
- Creative Poultry Breeding, By W.C. Carefoot, MSc, PhD. Copyright 1985, Published by Veronica Mayhew in 2005.
- 21st Century Poultry Breeding, By Grant Brereton, Copyright 2008, ISBN 97809 47870 577
- An Introduction to Color Forms of the Domestic Fowl, By Brian Reeder, Copyright 2006, ISBN 1 4259 0421 1

I own copies of all of these authors' publications and each one has bonuses and things to teach you about colours in your birds.


Here's some items to fling your way at you...I've re-written some of one of my posts (page 20) on my thread on Pear-A-Dice residing...should help you and others get started on your colour me poultry adventures...

There are only two colours in poultry feathers...only TWO colours (pigments or melanins) in bird feathers...yeh...two. <<I tend to repeat myself regarding the important parts...not so much to stress you out, but help me remember where in tarnation we currently are at...so I don't go racing off after a shiny...>>

So where was I? Oh yeh...two colours:

RED

BLACK

No pigment is WHITE...so no colour or just lacking pigments = white.

Red is called Phaeomelanin and Black is called Eumelanin. <-----Big words you don't have to recall but nice to know their more scientific handles.

Often people that use BIG words are trying to impress someone how importantly smart they be...well my going throw on this is that if one can teach a seven year old child (and I have easily taught 7 year olds the inheritance of blue dilution when I was APA/ABA Youth Program Adviser for Canada) something...you gotta KNOW your stuff and be able to share that knowledge in easy to understand language and terms. That KISS principle, eh?

Don't blow my mind with your BIG words...blow my mind that you can share your "intelligence" without complicating it needlessly so everyone GETS IT too!

So two colours...got it...good...now get this one...

How does one get all the fancy smancy shiny colours we see in birds (think hummingbird!). That would be laid (cackleberries) blame on the bubbles on the feather's surface...yes, I said BUBBLES...hee hee...

Shiny black feathers on a Red Standard Chantecler rooster
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Chickens (and other birds!) may express a blue black, a green black, a purple black, or in this case above...a COPPERish black.

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I often refer to the shiny green black as "beetle green sheen."

Partridge Chantecler Orielle displays this rather nicely!
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Orielle is a cockerel breeder and expresses "hackle black" as in she has a black head. She throws dark offspring with ample amounts of eumelanin (black pigments)!

Standard Partridge Chantecler females - Orielle hackle black left and exhibition Partridge female on right (pullet breeder) ​

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Feathers may also have a dull or flat black like in our Australian Black Swan feathers.

Dull or Flat Black...no shine! There is oil in the plumage (waterfowl) but no shine to the black colour

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There is a progression of colours...strong expression to dilutions of the colour...the two colours of red or black.

Red may be diluted right to white->beige->yellow->orange->red->brown...

Black may be altered too...think of what blue dilution does to black...makes it a grey colour!

Black may be Black->blue (more a grey in the shadows) or it can be a Black->chocolate...keep in mind that the chocolate can be a brown, a brown so dark it is hard to tell is the BLACK a brown or not? So in Red and Black, if the colour you see is brown...because technically when we FINGER PAINT and mix up our colours...to make BROWN you combine both black and red...does that sorta make sense? That brown colours can be both red AND black combined to make it?

The overlap area for red and black has to be brown which is both pigments mixed.

Buff, Red and Partridge Hackles on Standard Chantecler roos​

The textures of the feathers also contribute to helping to reflect light back to our eyes...the hackles on those three roo a doo's I posted here above all flicker and flitter because of the textures on the edges of those hackle feathers...reflecting light back to our eyes--making the colours POP!

Wing feathers off the Ruddy Shels (pair on the right in the background thar)​

Mandarin Ducks...

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I took this photo of some of the feathers off a Mandarin Drake...

Amazing that all these feathers come off the one specimen of bird...
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Bedazzling arrays of colourations for us to enjoy viewing!

Some of our Red Golden Pheasant male feathers...​

We are talking about shiny greens, shiny blues, shiny yellows, shiny reds...oranges, browns and blacks...fabulous arrays of colourations.

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Feathers are rather kewl bits of protein if you really begin to look at them. Not just feathered suits to keep the birds weather resistant...but also used to make displays and to show off...proud birds...proud and pretty I figure! Looky here below...

My SIL took this photo of one of my standard Partridge Chanteclers...don't you just see the HEART!

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I like how the Partridge pattern is very simple in genetic terms...Pg and Mh on eb ...simple yet magnificent. The genetics are really easy to express but the Partridge pattern is one of the most difficult of patterns to get right. Always working on it and no specimen is completely perfect but that is the draw...the attraction is that you can work an entire lifetime and keep on working on it...fantastic colour pattern full of challenges! You will never be bored...

Partridge hackle and saddle feathers in one of our standard male Chanteclers​

Even the girls are purdy...

Yeh, feathers of three female standard Partridge Chanteclers
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Juvenile female feather from July 26 2011...compared to their adult feathers in May 2014. You may judge what the adult feathers become from the early expression of their pattern...width of barring, straightness and crispness. We do have a window into the future expression of baby birds to what they may turn out like as adults!

December 5, 2014​

Some might figure the above Partridge pattern is correct...nope, from the distribution of black (wings & tail-lacking!), to the shade of the basic ground colour (too light) to the texture of the actual feathers (too soft!)...I am not pleased with the aspects she exhibits for her variety. I kept this female back for breeding NOT because of her colour variety, but for the breed shape she has, the production aspects in that she has a very nice WIDE back (to make egg in and hang meat off of) and consistently produces decent winter eggs in Extra Large and even Jumbo sizes for us...the fact she is older and therefore is expressing characteristics I want like longevity, disease resistance, vigour, fertility, and has a temperament I adore...it is important for us to investigate the variety as in colour genetics but that is never ALL we are only interested in with our heritage birds. Pretty is as pretty does...inside as well as outwards...poultry with perks we can consume!

Colour genetics will assist you in dissecting your birds, so you know them well enough to have a good grasp upon predicting the varieties they will produce in future generations. The wonderful thing about colour genetics is that we DO know so much about the inheritance of it...now for complex things like breed type, balance and even temperament, not so much! LOL

Creative Poultry Breeding, By W.C. Carefoot, MSc, PhD. Copyright 1985, Published by Veronica Mayhew in 2005, page 65:
It is the experience of the author that after achieving a consistently high standard of colour and markings the shape can be steadily improved by inbreeding within the strain. However if the shape is attained without the colour and markings the author has not observed a strain which has gradually improved the marking to a very high standard. The reason for this observation is simply explained. The major marking effects are caused by the interaction of relatively few genes. These genes are so definite in effect that they are identifiable, hence the fancier can tell whether they are present or not. On the other hand, with the exception of bantamising genes, no single gene has yet been identified which alters skeletal shape other than those which deform. Consequently it is relatively easy to group together the correct numbers of pattern and colour genes, always taking the best shape where choice is available. Then having these fixed within the strain, selection occurs for body and feather shape.

While I will NEVER be taken in on the fallacy of that statement, "build the barn and then paint it," I will say "you can build the barn, but if you don't have the tint, you'll never paint her right." Understanding colour genetics is good but it is not the be all to end all. A master craftsman measures twice and cuts once, assembles the structure complete, only to disassemble it to paint it entirely...this may be more time consuming but when the barn is assembled in its fully painted form for the second & last time, the entire building will last for what seems like an eternity because every seam, every surface has been properly protected with the paint 'cause you tore it all to pieces to do just that! Quality takes time & effort--if'n it was easy, everyone would be doing it.

Hackle feathers from a male Partridge Chantecler - Red and Black...very basic and to the point colours​

Now we know that we have two basic colours in red and black (with white as no pigment). Pretty simple yes?


Each colour is not produced at the same speed by the bird...red pigments are slower to form than black ones...how can you EVER remember this...why looking at the MDF variety helps...helps me remember anyway!

Vulture Hock on a Booted Bantam chicken breed in the Mille de Fleur (thousands of flowers) variety​

The end of the feather (the tip being the very first thing made) is WHITE...so the genetics of the bird are telling the feather..."NO pigment," so we get WHITE at the end of the feather. Then the genetics tell the bird..."OK...OK...you can have pigments!"...so the first colour or pigment to be expressed on the feather after NO pigment (white) is expressed...you see BLACK...black pigment is faster to be produced on the feather...then the RED pigment shows up...red pigment takes longer to be produced.


So on these black or red or no pigment feathers...we can have patterns...not just solid self-colours of course.

Patterns can be expressed in black or red pigments...here are barred/cuckoo feathers...black is called barred or cuckoo (fuzzy fast = cuckoo, and sharp slow = barred)...and red is called Brockbar. Can you say that...BROCKbar...like a chicken hen would..."brock A bar"...LOL

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Black and white Barred or Cuckoo / red and white Brockbar...same pattern is expressed but in different COLOURS



Left is black and right is red -same pattern in different pigments ​

Here is another example of chicken patterns in feathers...different colours...

Two chickens; both same ground colour as in red pigment...but laced or marked up with either a black colour or a white colour​

Optical illusion too...the chicken with the black markings looks to have a darker ground...and the chicken with the white markings a lighter ground...but indeed...both grounds are the EXACT same colour! Interesting how markings can mess you up!

Any pattern like lacing can be expressed in colours like black, blue, chocolate, buff, or white (no colour)....kinda kewl eh?

Depending on the genetics...

Like for example the e-series in chickens...it depends how certain colour genetics will be expressed based on what genetics the chicken has in the E series. I think of the e-series like many flavours in soup stocks...be it lamb, beef, chicken, pork, or fish stocks...changes how the additions of things like carrots and onions will tasted based on what the soup stock is made from!

Here are a few pictures to assist.

First the eb Brown ...

This chicken (male MDF Booted Bantam) is pure for eb brown.​

Not the chicken that contributed the above feathers...but this hen is eb brown also...

Can't see the slate down...so we gotta grab the girly and fluff her up to show the grey slate...​

She has the grey slate down​

- note the white in her primaries too...this is a single dose of recessive white (leaking and showing itself!)


I love asking people that have seen a Brahma chicken (the Buff variety does this well...but the Lights are fun too)...so what colour down would these birds have? It being eb Brown...the down colour is spectacular against the upper colour.

I mush back the outer feathers to reveal the down colour and Kazoom---the grey down is really spectacular!

Buff Bantam Brahma roo​

Light Bantam Brahma roo​

Not just the males have the dark down...

Buff Bantam Brahma female​

This female Bantam Buff Brahma just oozes dark down...she has almost an ebony cast to her...even her irises are dark...lays darkish brown eggs too. If you are after "contrast" in a variety...that buff and dark down sure does do that indeed...pretty vivid contrast to each other.

Knowing that eb Brown in the e-series is going to likely have GREY down sure assists you in knowing a good guess the genetics of some of the birds.

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By the colour of the down on this female, I know she is eb Brown in the e-series!

Bantam project Chantecler...she is a sorta "Golden Laced" but then has "multi lacings" too ​

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Her genetic opposite in the S-series is this hen Pewter...

A silver sorta kinda "pencilled" bantam project Chantecler​

The S-series is gender linked so a female chicken is Silver (S) or she is Gold (s"+")...she can never be impure because she only receives one dose in the S-series--she is Gold (s"+"/-) OR she is Silver (S/-), she never gets two doses. The males chickens get two doses in the S-series and may be pure for Gold (s"+"/s"+") or Silver (S/S) or impure Silver/Gold (S/s"+").

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OK...on to another in the e-series...eWh as in Wheaten.

This chicken (male Buff Chantecler) is pure for eWh Wheaten



Chantelle is eWh/eWh
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She is one of our very first Standard Chanteclers (June 2008)...she is still with us too! Happily ate a treat out of the palm of my hand this morning--not spoilt...NEVER do something like that with them mere bird brains!

Now to mix it on up...

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This chicken (Red Chantecler) is both eWh and eb in the e-series...so impure as in eWh/eb...

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Note in the feather samples how the mixed up chicken is both eb brown AND eWh Wheaten...grey slate down AND reddish down.

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Some of the feathers look like Wheaten feathers...completely red...some of the feathers look like eb Brown...having some grey slate down...but a bar of the slate in the down...the bottom of the feather is still buffy like the Wheaten ones!

See the grey down on this eWh/eb Red Chantecler?​

Breeds like the Buckeye have this bar of grey slate down mentioned right in their Standard...

Neato, eh?

So why bother to understand colour genetics...the oldtimers never had genetics to study until Mendel did all his pea plant experiments and people began to make up these little letters and what not's? Well to me...it is far easier to say, "eb, Pg and Mh" than to have to explain the whole "Partridge" pattern expression to someone--lookit the SOP worded description for the Partridge variety, eh! Recall that hobby names are confusing at the best of times; genetic terms are much more concise!

We recite the genetic recipes for colour genetics in chickens knowing the wild type (what the Red Junglefowl has going on for colour genetics--suppose to be the chicken's ancestor!) is a given and we only usually say the MUTATIONS (the changes made to the wild type expression - usually wild type has the subscript plus sign as in "+" after the genetic letters) for the differing colour patterns...like Partridge is "eb and Pg and Mh" or eb brown in the e-series with Pg as in Pattern gene and Mh as in Mahogany on a wild type base otherwise.

The reason one might study colour genetics is to help one do the one project I have on the go...making the large chickens into bantam chickens...in the chicken breed of Chanteclers.

First cross (F1) is a MESS of rainbow colours...might have been AFRAID had I not had the background in colour genetics to fall back on!​

F1 and F2 generations...still a mess of colours AND patterns...yikes! ​

F3 Generation...getting very close to a self white bird! Yah!



F4 generation​

This generation is starting to segregate to White, Partridge, and Buff varieties in a bantam or smaller form of the Breed...Eureka! Sorta getting closer and closer to success...Yes? Taken ten years or so but time flies when you are having FUN, right?

Hope this post has been helpful!

Whoops...there's a shiny...gotta go!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada