Color Questions

[scottcaddy]

Thanks
Scott

 

[Cherie1n2]

With a Russian orloff crossed to a Saipan what would be your f1 predictions (using roo and hen from each breed to utilize possible sex linked traits.)

My long term goal is upright carriage on tight feathered very tall birds with full beards and muffs.

 

[CanuckBock]

With a Russian orloff crossed to a Saipan what would be your f1 predictions (using roo and hen from each breed to utilize possible sex linked traits.)

My long term goal is upright carriage on tight feathered very tall birds with full beards and muffs.

Basic list for asking what F1's will be...

You need first to clearly state SIZE of the breed (most poultry comes in TWO sizes...bantam or large fowl/standard sizes--with some exceptions to the rooles like my Booteds which are always feist myster widdle birdles). I can play read dumb and stall out at this point on your query or go about to investigate Saipans and figure if they are listed as being two to three feet TALL and females are said to be smaller than the males at 10 to 12 pounds...yeh, we are talking about some Big Birds...nope, not THE Big Bird (rather unique fella) but closer than even my bantam Brahmas would be to the average Saipan females.

So you need to express what size of each breed (bantam or standard sized?) and what variety (colour pattern) keeping in mind this thread IS entitled "color questions!" Without these important factors stated, F1's may be anything imaginable, especially since any breed may be any variety! Gotcha!

So being that I am a sucker for punishment, here goes with my shot in the dark...BUT (and a big butt it be) I will NOT guess colour pattern outcomes as you will clearly see if you DO decided to use White or Black Orloffs on say a traditional wild type Saipan...dem White or Black birds are easily capable of hiding any colour pattern ever expressed under the sun and may require F3's to even begin to show these hidden gems or thorns. I bred my bantam White Wyandottes to other bantam Wyandottes (but coloured ones) for five years to SEE what colours the Whites really were hiding under their envelope of NO pigment (white; lack of colour pigments) before I began one of my breeding projects to make standard sized fowl into bantams with some expectations of making proper varieties eventually down the rocky road.

I suspect you need to tell US what colours your two breeds are...and unless you have spent at minimum five generations playing about breeding the self-colours to patterned-coloured varieties (if that is what they be--not the same variety in Orloff and Saipan) so you KNOW better what hidden recessives (and you mention gender linked...are we talking a difference in you see males that are impure at the s-series as in gold/Silver? or maybe Barred/Cuckoo or chocolates, duns, or other gender linked items perhaps??).

Sigrid shows some delightful photos of Russian Orloffs in Moscow in her colour genetics book; some at the market place & some at a breeder's...and she simply states under one photo...

V shaped "heart" marking on head so e"+" - cutester er what!

Photo above and below; Egyptian eye liner markings beside eyes so wild type "+"​

​

Top left e"+" wild type, eb Brown bottom right



Top e"+" wild type, bottom eb brown​

One often has a window on day olds as to what e-series you have...along with other factors...but keep in mind that day old down colour pretty much does not reflect how the adults end up feathered out (unless self coloured as in white, black, buff, blue, choco, etc. but even there some express head dots and turn self-coloured later on in feathers). The more we examine the birds at different ages, the better we be at knowing the colour genetics in play. I am not quite solid on my feet yet on how a e"+"/eb chick expresses its down pattern but I will get better and better at this now that I have clues on what I am seeing. Great excuse to hatch, photograph, oogle and track them fuzz butts more & more every successive year, eh?

Mottle is a funny item...some express it really young (white dotty dots or white spangles of no pigments) and others take some time to express its presence. Sometimes early mottling means the bird goes over the top and gets way too white too soon to be a proper example for exhibition for very long...so say in Speckled Sussex, one has to breed up lots of new up and comings for showing BEFORE they get too white as they age. A good breeder hen can sometimes produce excellent pullets/cockerels but herself is too white to be good shown.


I believe the best shot here at keeping down variations in the F1's colour pattern expressions is that I am hoping you have a Black Breasted Red Orloff but likely it is Spangled (more common form I have seen listed tho there are some historic influxes of White Orloffs out in Eastern Canada--so who rightly knows!) and then would prefer you had the Spangled version of Orloff based on wild type, so e"+" with mutations of double dose mottling, with recessive blacks, and Mahogany for that lovely rich dark red ground colour. Some Orloffs have a more soft feather texture than hard...you may prefer harder feathers as your end outcomes but realize if you have temperature extremes, that softer denser poof feather suits helps insulate the birds from suffering being too hot or too cold in certain geographical locations. Green sheen on black feathers of the Orloff hint basically you have lots of black pigments available...so recessive blacks in the mix to make a rich dark red (often called brown) ground colour base.



http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGK/Orloffs/BRKOrloff.html


Orloff
Looking to feathersite (I know, I know--more often than not this site is a hit and miss on good breed or variety specimens--sigh!)

I see Orloffs listed as coming in colour varieties of Spangled, Black Breasted Red, White, Black, Barred/Cuckoo, Crele, Mahogany, & Splash.

An old time colour pattern is something named "Mahogany" which looks like Spangled but thinking it is missing the mottling alleles. It would be like a MDF but a Red Mille de Fleur (Speckled Sussex, tri-coloured Wyandotte, and Spangled OEG) which is with recessive blacks and Mahogany; both meant to give the rich deep red pigments. Based on e-series wild type (States), eb Brown (Australia) or eWh Wheaten (UK & Europe - both eWh and eb). Saw a photo of a Saipan female that looks Columbian with perhaps some leaky red from autosomal red perhaps?

1931​

The one labelled "splash" is exhibiting some pretty intense eumelanin and phaeomelanin...my guess this is a Spangled Orloff with one dose of recessive white and not a double dose of Blue dilution at all. Why? As per old stringman Mr. Gordon Ridler and Dr. Clive Carefoot's instructions to include one dose of rec white in Mille Fleur and Partridge varieties to help make the top coats pop...look above at this vintage drawing to see white in primaries and how some of the "Spangled" Orloff photos show white (no pigment) leaking in feathers (wings, tails, I see very clean white muffs/beards). I see also that Saipans are said to come in the Pyle variety which can be made with one dose Dom White OR Blue Dilution in a double dose (so Splash is still a possibility I suppose).


Saipan
Wild type, White, Pyle, Gold (looks to me to be a Black Red neck).


http://www.petbirdbreeds.com/domesticated/saipan-jungle-fowl-chicken/:

http://www.poultrypages.com/saipan-jungle-fowl.html:
Saipan Jungle Fowl Chicken
Characteristics
The Saipan is either flat combed or pea combed and absent of wattles, having a simple dewlap instead. The rooster is most often Black Breasted Red and the hen Wheaten in color, there are other color combinations such as white.

So are you more keen on knowing what colour variety the F1's will potentially be or what breed shape you might see? Your objectives are to make more Orloffs or more Saipans? So what breed is your main objective here then and what colour pattern do you think you want to end up with given the freedom that Saipans are not recognized (unless they are lumped into Junglefowl but pretty BIG for J/F's!) and Orloffs come in varieties recognized as White, Spangled, and Black Tailed Red? Keeping in mind that maybe there is something in the works for recognition with APA or ABA...I don't really keep apprised of Orloffs and Saipans, eh!


So I propose some questions your way...think I remembered them all...in this summary...but I am

, so mighta forgot some too...get to play the old card, eh?

- How many generations have you been actively breeding either breed?
- What size are each breed you have; bantam or standard?
- Which varieties in these breeds are you crossing?
- What are your breed/variety objectives; make more Orloffs or Saipans or both, & in what colour patterns?
- If you are just making up some purdy mutts, your objective here is to have WHICH comb type in your future generations?
- Why are you doing this then?


BREEDING STRATEGY
I would expect that a Spangled Orloff (wild type with 3 mutations; Mh, mo, rb) bred to a Wild Type coloured Saipan would minimize the F1's outcomes colour pattern wise and help you work towards a more predictable and reliable outcome for producing one singular more "like begets like" variety if you even care about this feature.

Leg colour and eyes should probably be the same in both breeds; reddish bay and yellow shanks/feets.

Body shape looks basically similar as does feather texture to a degree (nice crisp patterns are best expressed on hard feathers, softer ones are better insulators against temp extremes BUT result in fuzzy expressions of feather patterns) ...steer towards whichever form & feather you prefer for the breed you want.

Choose muffs/beards or none and select progeny for either expression you want...select select select...

Comb types, again, choose progeny that express the type you desire and use those to make more. Both Pea and Rose are dominant to Single and Pea with Rose = Cushion/Strawberry/Walnut combs.

Breed lots, select what you want from lots of outcomes...retain them for at least a year so you don't toss the best babies out with the bathwater.

As you begin down this journey, set some minimum expectations on your outcomes. If you must have muffs/beards...sometimes the approach to not keeping any but ones with the trait you desire gets you to the prize quicker...but always be ready to rework it should you see something lacking in the line that you may be inadvertently selecting away from. Some traits are linked

Keep mindful of the most important factors when breeding poultry; vigour & disease resistance, fertility & production, good temperament, longevity and then worry about the phenotype... Best use hens and cocks over untested pullets and cockerels...then you may identify the best of the traits you desire in the mature birds that have survived and prospered at your house and under your husbandry.

Sounds like a FUN project...best wishes to your endeavours being successful!

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada

Edit to fix photo caption...sure glad I ain't driving today...right from left, left from right...need more coffee!

 

[Cherie1n2]

Thank you so much for all the time and effort you put into your response. At very least, I've learned how to gather the information necessary to make an answer possible.

Even to claim My breeding project being in its infancy might be a stretch as the foundation stock won't hatch till march 4th... So maybe I should say early conception.

I'm purchasing from ideal poultry hatchery. All I know at this point is that they claim the Saipan males are red with black breasts and tails and the females are laced reddish brown. For the orloffs the website states both sexes are spangled.. males are multicolored ranging from orange to black and the females are light mahogany.

My main goals are structural and not color oriented.. I understand the process will take time, space,and mostly dedication.

Goals: very tall upright stature with very close short feathering. Beards and muffs. Resistance against flying predators like hawks and owls (although foxes and stray dogs are also a problem here my electric fencing minimizes those losses... But I would like to eliminate the need for roofing enclosures so that I can be mildly comfortable free ranging again)

In an ideal world I would like to accomplish (as I'm sure many others would) a beetle green sheen or Grey bird that looks very reptilian.

 

[Cherie1n2]

Also, out of the books
- Genetics of Chicken Colours, By Sigrid Van Dort, David Hancox. Copyright 1990, ISBN 978 90 6674 404 2
- Creative Poultry Breeding, By W.C. Carefoot, MSc, PhD. Copyright 1985, Published by Veronica Mayhew in 2005.
- 21st Century Poultry Breeding, By Grant Brereton, Copyright 2008, ISBN 97809 47870 577
- An Introduction to Color Forms of the Domestic Fowl, By Brian Reeder, Copyright 2006, ISBN 1 4259 0421 1

Which would you suggest I begin with?

 

[CanuckBock]

Thank you so much for all the time and effort you put into your response. At very least, I've learned how to gather the information necessary to make an answer possible.

Even to claim My breeding project being in its infancy might be a stretch as the foundation stock won't hatch till march 4th... So maybe I should say early conception.

I'm purchasing from ideal poultry hatchery. All I know at this point is that they claim the Saipan males are red with black breasts and tails and the females are laced reddish brown. For the orloffs the website states both sexes are spangled.. males are multicolored ranging from orange to black and the females are light mahogany.

My main goals are structural and not color oriented.. I understand the process will take time, space,and mostly dedication.

Goals: very tall upright stature with very close short feathering. Beards and muffs. Resistance against flying predators like hawks and owls (although foxes and stray dogs are also a problem here my electric fencing minimizes those losses... But I would like to eliminate the need for roofing enclosures so that I can be mildly comfortable free ranging again)

In an ideal world I would like to accomplish (as I'm sure many others would) a beetle green sheen or Grey bird that looks very reptilian.

So we are all on the same page here...Ideal says on both their products...

​

So are you wanting to have a line of Orloffs or a line of Saipans or a hybrid of both these breeds?

Could jest say you are gonna wing it and see which ones thrive then?

The colourations of both are good for your objective of predator prevention thru sight location. The reason the "Partridge" Chantecler was begun in the partridge variety was so the birds could free range better than say a White bird could. Now that said, if you had a flock of Whites with only one Dark bird...predators will target the odd one out...so likely to pick off the Dark bird.

I think the behaviour of the predator is to choose the one that sticks out...it can be because the bird is different, they can focus on it as the wanted one...because it IS different, it could be an easier one to capture. Besides, an injured bird acts different from a flock of healthy ones...so is far safer for a predator to attempt to take something that stands out from the crowd and even the very birds in the flock are less likely to school around with the one different one. There are risks to being predators...you get a good kick or a bite...you can be outta action injured yourself and unless you are in peak condition, you won't likely capture yourself any prey as a meal and you expire. Not alot of people remember that predators run a bigger risk getting a meal than all the potential "meals" do being in a group; hiding as in safety in numbers. Sure the one prey member of the flock gets eaten and dies, but every time one puts chicken on the menu, the predator runs the risk of the keeper taking them out or shutting out the opportunity down of making a meal out of our birds.

I read some place that Saipans were somehow related to the Malay...course that is a kinda foundation breed and many breeds of chickens are related to them. Bantam Malays are recognized by ABA in Black, Black Breasted Red, Mottled, Spangled and White. APA 2010 lists standard sized Malays as Black, Black Breasted Red, Spangled, White, Red Pyle, and Wheaten (in female only). Malay lays dark brown eggs, yellow skinned, comb is strawberry. The typo in the APA SOP on Malays has me in giggles..."sinister expression caused by a broad skull and projecting beetle eye-brews." I figure you better take up drinking root beers real quick if you decide Malays are the breed fer you!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_chicken:

​

First breed to be bantamized...well I be durn, eh? They have a colour version that sure looks like the Saipan's eh? Mighten think about the Malay on crossing with the Saipan...to me seems WAY closer than even the Orloff yah know.

You got any concerns about mean temperaments? Used to be that some people quite enjoyed these more gamey breeds and how even the chicks were never really push overs...lots have been working on a more amiable temperament too. Much better than puttin' on the body armour to go do daily chook chores and breeding pens might have some pretty serious fights if you can't keep the males securely put from getting to each other's harems...or even the females could be meansters too. Course you might desire a bit of a nasty streak of misery if you are free ranging them, eh?

http://www.ultimatefowl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Saipan:

Also, out of the books
- Genetics of Chicken Colours, By Sigrid Van Dort, David Hancox. Copyright 1990, ISBN 978 90 6674 404 2
- Creative Poultry Breeding, By W.C. Carefoot, MSc, PhD. Copyright 1985, Published by Veronica Mayhew in 2005.
- 21st Century Poultry Breeding, By Grant Brereton, Copyright 2008, ISBN 97809 47870 577
- An Introduction to Color Forms of the Domestic Fowl, By Brian Reeder, Copyright 2006, ISBN 1 4259 0421 1

Which would you suggest I begin with?

Hands down Carefoot...if colour variety is not a main focus for you...indeed Carefoot gives some colour genetics you can get by with (some now have been replaced by newer research) and lots of practical guidance on breeding...Creative Poultry Breeding as the title dictates! LOL Stuff he never pulled outta his butt from studying a research flock...stuff he wrote down to guide us poultry breeders because he was doing just that himself.

Save the other titles for if you want to get more into colour genetics breeding. They are more targeting that and why I gave the nod of approval on this thread since it is for colour questions, righto?

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm, Alberta, Canada​

 

[Cherie1n2]

Canuckbock,

Actually I have Malay and Americana coming in that same order.. The Americana for the colored eggs (gotta keep the family/friends happy and buying eggs)

I do plan to conserve all the strains..its just more entertaining to have an evil project for birds that would otherwise be culled for not meeting a standard of perfection. ..and also, what else do I have to do from now till death??.. I mean life is all about creating something right? Very few people get recognized for duplicating something..and what better material than an eatable one.

My promise: everything will be carefully recorded with hard copy and cyber data and in full color from day 1.

 

[CanuckBock]

My promise: everything will be carefully recorded with hard copy and cyber data and in full color from day 1.

Then we look forward to seeing this project as it progresses.

You may want to consider starting up a thread of your own and I sure would appreciate a personal heads up if you choose to do this.

Thank you for sharing yer fun. Enjoyable to live vicariously through others' poultry adventurous lives.

Tara

 

[scottcaddy]

Quote: It would be nice if a link to your new thread was posted here also for those of us who try to follow the different happenings with breeding projects and all.
Thanks Much.
Scott

 

[Cherie1n2]

I will do that. ..i'm wiring in a 4,400sq ft area to keep the birds for this project and have several seperation pens already to keep the brooders long enough so the eggs will be pure. I'm also pretty good with a spread sheet

I usually get pretty obsessed so expect and at my age years fly by. Thanks again for the encouragment ( and since this is a color thread, rest assure i'll closely record color..)