Constant diarrhea - completely soaking the coop bedding

[LaFleche]

Maybe stop feeding BSL and just stick with their normal feed crumbles for a few weeks and plain fresh water or oregano, fennel and thyme tea.
BSL are high in fat and protein and might cause diarrhea as can too much dairy products or too much probiotics.

Deworm them thoroughly and try Moro carrot soup to restore a healthy gut balance after dewormi ng.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/my-old-girl-is-not-doing-well.1499555/post-25064796

 

[azygous]

It's more practical, as @Eggcessive says, to collect just a few random flock poop samples and run a fecal float for parasites since any parasites detected indicates the whole flock may have them. The test picks up most species of worms and coccidia.

The gram stain tests are for bacteria. It's more expensive than the fecal float. This can identify the precise bacteria present. If there is detectable bacteria, there should be a corresponding chicken that is acting sick and lethargic and perhaps has diarrhea. Poop from this sick chicken is the poop that should be collected, labeled as being from this hen, and tested for bacteria using a gram stain test.

Yeast is generally detected by symptoms such as full squishy crop or white crusty and smelly discharge at the vent and is treated separately with miconazole or Nystatin. Worms and bacteria require a worming med and an antibiotic.

 

[John Sutter123]

Hi All,

@Eggcessive
@azygous
@dawg53

I finally got the test results back. The vet was pretty adamant about testing each individual bird (3) so I had to play along. He did agree to test a combined sample too.

Results of Fecal Testing:

A total of 4 fecal samples were tested:

• Wyandotte #1
• Wyandotte #2
• Marans #1
• Combined sample from under roosts

These two tests were run on all 4 samples:

• N.M.B. Stain (New methylene blue) – Same as Gram’s Stain - $27.19 each
• Fecal Exam-Comprehensive – Direct on microscope slide & Float Test - $32.45 each

Findings:

• All N.M.B/Gram’s Stains – Normal / Negative
• Wyandotte # 1 – Positive for Coccidiosis
• Combined sample from under roosts – Positive for Coccidiosis

Veterinarian’s recommendations:

• #1 Remove all organic material from environment
• Coop
  • Remove all pine shavings from Coop (leaving bare linoleum floor)
  • Clean & disinfect Coop linoleum flooring daily
• Covered & Uncovered Runs
  • Remove all double ground log mulch down to the bare earth (sand)
• #2 Remove & Clean-up any new poops – at least daily

Note: Reason for #1 and #2 is to prevent reinfection after Treatment

Medication to be prescribed:

• TMPS (Sulfamethoxazole & Trimethoprim)
  • Egg withdrawal – 8 weeks
  • Weigh each bird to determine correct dose
• Save-a-Chick Probiotic – for waterer

Note: I missed the Veterinarian’s phone call so I spoke with the Lab tech who didn’t know much, and just read me the Vet’s notes. Since I couldn’t speak with the Vet, I’ll ask you guys my questions.

Here’s my comments & questions for you guys:

• Why recommend treating with TMPS (Sulfamethoxazole & Trimethoprim)?
  • 8 week egg withdrawal with a potentially toxic drug.
• Why not use Corid (Amprolium)? I have a bottle of 9.6% right here.
• Why go to the trouble of removing all organic material in the environment?
  • 32 sq ft coop, 100 sq ft covered run, 220 sq ft uncovered run space.
  • That’s a whole lot of material to dig out, especially with a messed up back.
• I am under the impression that Corid starves/kills coccidia by mimicking thiamin (Vitamin B1).
  • If I treated the entire flock with Corid in the waterer, would it still be necessary to remove all the organic material?
  • Even if they happened to eat their old, infected poops that I rake into the pine shavings & log mulch, shouldn’t the Corid still be just as effective?
• I’ve never de-wormed these birds. Since no other parasites showed up on the tests (other than coccidia), is it safe to assume that I do not have to use the Safe-Guard de-wormer?

If you guys think I should try the Corid route first, is this the best dose and duration?

• Amprolium 9.6% oral solution. Drinking water solution is two teaspoons per gallon for five days. One week after the final dose, do another five day round. This should be their only source of water for the entire 5 day period.
• There are two Wyandottes that have the worst diarrhea (one of these with past crop issues), but neither one of them is acting sick (good energy, egg laying, posture, etc.). Should I do a Drench-dose for them? (0.1ml per pound of weight undiluted, syringed directly into the beak once per day for three days).

Right now, I’m admittedly doubting the Vet’s advice, then again, I’ve only had my chickens for 11 months so who am I to judge. My goals are to get these girls healthy and to firm up these chronic loose stools.

Please let me know what you all think about this.

I very much appreciate all of you!

John

 

[Eggcessive]

It would be good to know how many coccidia oocysts the vet saw saw in the slides, a couple or loaded. All birds may have a few oocysts in a poop sample. Adult birds usually do not suffer from coccidiosis, since they usually build up a tolerance for it in the soil and droppings, unless they are sickly. But birds on deep litter that do not get out to free range might have more of a chance of getting it.

Many vets seem to prescribe sulfa antibiotics such as SMZ TMP or sulfadimethoxine, rather than Corid in case the strain is resistant. Since you have the Corid, you could try treating them with that for 5-7 days at the maximum dose. That is 2 tsp of the liquid Corid or 1.5 tsp of the powder per gallon of water mixed fresh daily. There is no egg withdrawal.

Coccidiosis is prevented with dry and clean bedding. I might consider removing the bedding inside the coop and replace with clean shavings. Many people find that sand makes a good surface, especially in an outdoor run. How deep is the log mulch on top of the sand? I understand the difficulty of removing the outdoor surface, but I would do what I could do within reason. Chicken keeping should not be that hard.

I would worm them with Valbazen or SafeGuard (fenbendazole) after Corid (or sulfa) treatment. Those are very safe. Many people have posted that they have had fecal floats come back negative, but still suspected parasites. I am not an expert on any of this, but I hope they do start having better poops.

 

[dawg53]

There are 9 types of coccidia that can infect chickens. There are 2 types that do not respond to Corid and require a sulfa drug to treat them. The sulfa drug provides antibiotic action to treat the coccidia.
Just for your information; coccidia oocysts will always show up on a microscopic slide. However, if the slide is loaded with oocysts, then there is a problem which requires treatment.

If you havent used the Corid yet, go ahead and get them started on it. If you havnt seen improvement after the fifth day, get them started on the SMZ-TMP per vets instructions.

I agree with you regarding removing the organic material, too much work...and I personally know about a sore back. I just got through having lower back surgery this past January for years of having a painful lower back. No more!
However, keeping everything as dry as possible is imperative when it comes to chicken keeping. In your case, I recommend that you scoop poop several times a day in your pens as best as you can. It will help deter coccidiosis and other bacterial issues.

I have sand in all my chicken pens, coops and some of the nest boxes. Sand deters parasites, doesnt run off nor creates nasty mud puddles after it rains that chickens love to drink from. It's very easy to scoop poop and dispose of it in a five gallon bucket.
Cleaning out the coops each morning, keeping feeders and waterers feces free is key in deterring coccidiosis and other nasties.

Here where I live, our soil is moist/wet and warm most of the year, worm soup. I worm my birds monthly with Valbazen. I have used Safeguard and other wormers over the years without any problems, but Valbazen is my go to wormer.
I see no need for you to worm your birds since the slides were clean.

@Eggcessive beat me to the punch and gave you excellent advice, she's a faster typist than me lol.

 

[John Sutter123]

Hope you all had a wonder Easter with lots of eggs! Sorry it's taken me so long to post an update but here we go.

Update of: 04-09-23

@Eggcessive
@azygous
@dawg53

Email response (in quotes) from the Veterinarian:

“It is true that a small amount of coccidia can be normal flora but the levels that we identified on your samples were higher than what I deem appropriate. High quantities of coccidia with no other abnormal findings are worth treating in my opinion.

There is not a good way for me to differentiate between types of coccidia on the fecal tests that we performed. I think it is ok to start with Corid and recheck coccidia counts in a few weeks. If counts are still high, then we need to start TMPS. TMPS works better in my experience, but has the downside of withdraw times. Make sure that no matter which medication you start with, that it is done in combination with environmental decontamination.”

Treatment details:
4/1/23 through 4/7/23 (7 days total): Corid in waterers. 2 tsp (10ml) per gallon

Results: Saw a significant improvement (firmer poops) by day 5 in most, but not all, of the birds. Three out of ten birds are still having fairly loose stools, and once in a while diarrhea. Many of the night & morning poops from the older birds (11 months) are what I think are called “broody poops”; they are as big as the eggs they lay. I need to research this to see if it's a sign of a problem.

4/8/23 till now: Corid in waterers. ½ tsp (2.5ml) per gallon. "Preventative Dose".

Following casportpony’s article and intend to administer this dosage for a full 14 days.


Mitigation progress:
Still working on removing all double ground log mulch (environmental contamination) from the covered and uncovered run. Bad back, so removing mulch shovel by shovel into a 5 gal bucket, and picking up individual poops multiple times per day. Hopefully the “preventive dose” of ½ tsp/gal will keep them from getting sick again until I get this dug down to the earth (sand). I’m considering replacing the pine shavings in the coop & nest boxes with sand as well.


Here are my questions for your guys:

• Do you agree with my Corid treatment plan shown above? If not, please guide me.

• They have not had any probiotics (Probios) since I’ve started the Corid. Is it ok to start using the Probios again? If so, what intervals?

• My understanding is that Corid depletes Thiamine (B1). Am I correct in assuming that I need to completely finish the "preventative dose" of corid before giving them any vitamins, electrolytes, and minerals (like Rooster Booster)?

• I plan to have another fecal float done by the vet after one week on the “preventative dose” of ½ tsp/gal. Is that appropriate or should I wait for 2 weeks?

• Any other comments or advice would also be very helpful.

My sincere thanks to all you guys!

 

[John Sutter123]

It would be good to know how many coccidia oocysts the vet saw saw in the slides, a couple or loaded. All birds may have a few oocysts in a poop sample. Adult birds usually do not suffer from coccidiosis, since they usually build up a tolerance for it in the soil and droppings, unless they are sickly. But birds on deep litter that do not get out to free range might have more of a chance of getting it.

Many vets seem to prescribe sulfa antibiotics such as SMZ TMP or sulfadimethoxine, rather than Corid in case the strain is resistant. Since you have the Corid, you could try treating them with that for 5-7 days at the maximum dose. That is 2 tsp of the liquid Corid or 1.5 tsp of the powder per gallon of water mixed fresh daily. There is no egg withdrawal.

Coccidiosis is prevented with dry and clean bedding. I might consider removing the bedding inside the coop and replace with clean shavings. Many people find that sand makes a good surface, especially in an outdoor run. How deep is the log mulch on top of the sand? I understand the difficulty of removing the outdoor surface, but I would do what I could do within reason. Chicken keeping should not be that hard.

I would worm them with Valbazen or SafeGuard (fenbendazole) after Corid (or sulfa) treatment. Those are very safe. Many people have posted that they have had fecal floats come back negative, but still suspected parasites. I am not an expert on any of this, but I hope they do start having better poops.

Hi Eggcessive. Please see my post above that shows the vet response to the number of oocysts. The mulch in the covered and uncovered runs is around 6-8 inches deep. I agree that it needs to be removed and am actively working on that and in the meantime am picking up individual poops many times per day.. I have a funny feeling that they may have missed some parasites on the past tests too. I'm planning to have another test done in a week or so. Thank you for all your advice.

 

[John Sutter123]

There are 9 types of coccidia that can infect chickens. There are 2 types that do not respond to Corid and require a sulfa drug to treat them. The sulfa drug provides antibiotic action to treat the coccidia.
Just for your information; coccidia oocysts will always show up on a microscopic slide. However, if the slide is loaded with oocysts, then there is a problem which requires treatment.

If you havent used the Corid yet, go ahead and get them started on it. If you havnt seen improvement after the fifth day, get them started on the SMZ-TMP per vets instructions.

I agree with you regarding removing the organic material, too much work...and I personally know about a sore back. I just got through having lower back surgery this past January for years of having a painful lower back. No more!
However, keeping everything as dry as possible is imperative when it comes to chicken keeping. In your case, I recommend that you scoop poop several times a day in your pens as best as you can. It will help deter coccidiosis and other bacterial issues.

I have sand in all my chicken pens, coops and some of the nest boxes. Sand deters parasites, doesnt run off nor creates nasty mud puddles after it rains that chickens love to drink from. It's very easy to scoop poop and dispose of it in a five gallon bucket.
Cleaning out the coops each morning, keeping feeders and waterers feces free is key in deterring coccidiosis and other nasties.

Here where I live, our soil is moist/wet and warm most of the year, worm soup. I worm my birds monthly with Valbazen. I have used Safeguard and other wormers over the years without any problems, but Valbazen is my go to wormer.
I see no need for you to worm your birds since the slides were clean.

@Eggcessive beat me to the punch and gave you excellent advice, she's a faster typist than me lol.

Thanks dawg53. I posted an update above with a few more details and questions. I'm in the process of removing all organic material and intend to dig everything down to the sand (I'm in Florida too - Tampa Bay area). Here's some photos of the run set up. If you have any suggestions for a better set up, please let me know; I'm very, very open for any suggestions. We just got the first rain in over 30 days and I can see that the sand is a much better medium so that's where I'm heading.

 

[A Swede in France]

Thanks for being so thorough @John Sutter123 ! One of my Faverolles has had diarrhea for a month now and I found your posts super informative and helpful. I hope everyone is well over at yours by now!