Cooping up at night

[sourland]

Key point.

30 chickens should have a minimum of 120 square feet in the coop -- 10x12.

While *theoretically* a large flock in a large coop *might* be able to tolerate higher densities because an individual bird has more space to avoid another individual bird, 8x8 is only a little more than half the suggested space per bird.

2 square feet per bird is commercial density -- where behavior problems are "handled" by debeaking the birds so they can't kill each other and intensive breeding selection for birds that can handle the conditions (see hatchery catalogs where certain breeds have a note "tolerates confinement").

This is a sad reality, and problems will only increase during the Mi. winter when birds are likely confined to the coop.

 

[3KillerBs]

This is a sad reality, and problems will only increase during the Mi. winter when birds are likely confined to the coop.

Indeed.

And, as an additional note, if any of the breeds in this flock have the hatchery catalog note "active forager" or "suited for free ranging" it's a clue that this breed is likely to need more than the suggested minimum space.

 

[22ChickenNuggets]

Chickens need to be able to jump up and down off the roosts easily to avoid injury to their legs and feet (can cause bumble foot) If the roosts are too short , too high or too close together the chickens will knock each other off the same roost or the roost in front or behind them. If they can't open their wings or close down without flapping their wings in each others faces they're going to be injured in the face and eyes. They do need a lower and a higher roosts since they don't have as much floor space to land as they should have.

Our coop and roost bars are fine, they have been modeled after Carolina coops to spec.

 

[22ChickenNuggets]

I would not put 30 chickens in an 8x8 area.

I do not have 30 chickens I have 21 lol

 

[aart]

I do not have 30 chickens I have 21 lol

Well, you said you could fit 30.......and even 21 is a bit of a squeeze.

 

[22ChickenNuggets]

I do not have 30 chickens I have 21 lol

No it’s really not. they literally sleep on 2 roost bars of the 3. Per specs of our winter climate our coop size, Run are perfect. And your high and mighty attitude is pretty off putting and disgusting. We did 2 years research and planning building this coop.

 

[saysfaa]

As a lot of you know (or maybe not) I’m a new chicken owner this year. My girls and roo are almost 7 months old. And I’ve been through hell, loosing one, bumblefoot, eye issues, yes I know it’s common. But I’m wondering if anyone can help me because maybe I’m over reacting, or maybe I’m not. I have a flock of 21. Consisting of Red stars, black stars, Easter eggers, 2 polish, and black giants and 1 Cochin Roo. At night when they coop up for bedtime, I feel like it’s a chaotic mess, now I know pecking order, maybe i don’t understand it well enough and them being 7 months old i thought they would have it figured out. But I have found that a couple birds might be bullies. My poor polish are petrified to go into the coop at night because they get beat up (no blood) and a couple EE’s get beat on too. Now I have enough roost bar space, the roost bars aren’t a ladder system they are all the same height. I find myself going out at bedtime and sitting in the coop making sure the lower ladies don’t get pushed around, and it’s gotten to the point my polish will actually run to me when they come in because they are scared. I feel like I created an issue, because I’m too emotional when it comes to things (horrible character flaw) but back to what I think is bullying. I have 1 black star who will sit by the door and Tag the lower ranking girls as they come in and chase them though the coop. The screams get me every time and I immediately stop her. But then as they are roosting it goes back to the point where some of them get bullied off the bars again. There has been times that the scared birds have actually pushed my roo off the roost because they are trying to get away from getting their ass kicked. He’s a big boy I’m scared he’s gonna hurt himself. But I’m just trying to figure out if my emotional character flaw is causing this chaos? Did I mess up my birds pecking order thinking it was bullying. At 7 months old will it correct itself? does it ever just calm down or is this going to be this much of a hot mess? Can someone maybe explain pecking order vs. bullying to me? Did I ruin my birds by being a “helicopter mom” If I did I feel like I failed as a chicken owner thus far. And it makes me sad for my birds. I just want peace in the coop. I want to be able to leave over night without worrying that something is going to happen. Please help!

I will try.
Behaviors that establish pecking order are intended to confirm that each bird acknowledges her place relative to the other bird involved. When it is not bullying, the higher ranked bird will react in proportion to the threat to her position by the lower ranked bird.

So, if the lower ranked bird is where the higher ranked bird wants to be (food dish, waterer, roost space, path between them, best sun bathing spot, etc), and the higher ranked bird starts moving that way and the lower ranked bird quickly moves far away before the higher ranked bird gets close - there will be no fuss.

Same scenario except the lower ranked bird doesn't move quickly or doesn't move very far enough. Then the higher ranked bird will tell her that isn't acceptable. If it is almost quickly enough or almost far enough then it might be only a little posturing. This can be so quick that we people don't see it without a lot of practice. If it is more significantly to slow or significantly not far enough then the higher ranked bird might give a quick step toward the lower ranked. Or step at her with wings raised. Or give a quick peck. Or flog her if it is a very slow reaction.

How quick or far it must be to be ok or to get just a little reaction depends on a lot of things. Such as how much difference in rank there is, the personalit of the hens, how often/serious the challenges are.

Contrasting all that to bullying. Bullying is when the higher ranked bird continually disciplines the lower ranked bird even when the lower ranked bird stays far out of her way.

In your description, the whole flock thinks the polish are the lowest ranking birds but the polish are not adequately acknowledging that they are. Hence, the nightly uproar.

Why they aren't is the next question. I'm being called away now but will try to help with that too, later. Or others can.

 

[22ChickenNuggets]

I will try.
Behaviors that establish pecking order are intended to confirm that each bird acknowledges her place relative to the other bird involved. When it is not bullying, the higher ranked bird will react in proportion to the threat to her position by the lower ranked bird.

So, if the lower ranked bird is where the higher ranked bird wants to be (food dish, waterer, roost space, path between them, best sun bathing spot, etc), and the higher ranked bird starts moving that way and the lower ranked bird quickly moves far away before the higher ranked bird gets close - there will be no fuss.

Same scenario except the lower ranked bird doesn't move quickly or doesn't move very far enough. Then the higher ranked bird will tell her that isn't acceptable. If it is almost quickly enough or almost far enough then it might be only a little posturing. This can be so quick that we people don't see it without a lot of practice. If it is more significantly to slow or significantly not far enough then the higher ranked bird might give a quick step toward the lower ranked. Or step at her with wings raised. Or give a quick peck. Or flog her if it is a very slow reaction.

How quick or far it must be to be ok or to get just a little reaction depends on a lot of things. Such as how much difference in rank there is, the personalit of the hens, how often/serious the challenges are.

Contrasting all that to bullying. Bullying is when the higher ranked bird continually disciplines the lower ranked bird even when the lower ranked bird stays far out of her way.

In your description, the whole flock thinks the polish are the lowest ranking birds but the polish are not adequately acknowledging that they are. Hence, the nightly uproar.

Why they aren't is the next question. I'm being called away now but will try to help with that too, later. Or others can.

Thank you!

 

[saysfaa]

There is likely several reasons. Some or all may be the reasons in your situation. In no particular order:
Polish sometimes can't see well, so they miss the approach or body language signals of the other birds.

Polish are more of a target than others because of the head feathers. Two parts to this: birds of a feather often really do flock together; certainly not always, but enough to be a possible factor. Chickens have best friends who rank higher than they otherwise would only because they are best friends of a very highly ranked hen. The second part is that a lower ranked hen stays out of the way of a higher ranked hen. This isn't just physical distance, it is out of notice too. I named my lowest ranked pullet Sonar because she so obviously flew under the radar as best she could (I renamed her but I digress). Anyway, it is harder to not be noticeable when you are shaking a pompom over your head at every move.

Guessing on this one, but it could be that you rank higher than any of the birds. So your protection of the lower ranking birds might be taken as giving them best friend to the top bird status. The lower ranking birds act on that which the higher ranking birds take as a challenge to their position.

There are probably more factors.

The next question is should anything be done about it. If so, what.

 

[22ChickenNuggets]

There is likely several reasons. Some or all may be the reasons in your situation. In no particular order:
Polish sometimes can't see well, so they miss the approach or body language signals of the other birds.

Polish are more of a target than others because of the head feathers. Two parts to this: birds of a feather often really do flock together; certainly not always, but enough to be a possible factor. Chickens have best friends who rank higher than they otherwise would only because they are best friends of a very highly ranked hen. The second part is that a lower ranked hen stays out of the way of a higher ranked hen. This isn't just physical distance, it is out of notice too. I named my lowest ranked pullet Sonar because she so obviously flew under the radar as best she could (I renamed her but I digress). Anyway, it is harder to not be noticeable when you are shaking a pompom over your head at every move.

Guessing on this one, but it could be that you rank higher than any of the birds. So your protection of the lower ranking birds might be taken as giving them best friend to the top bird status. The lower ranking birds act on that which the higher ranking birds take as a challenge to their position.

There are probably more factors.

The next question is should anything be done about it. If so, what.

Yes! I’ve been trimming their crests. They Aren’t show birds, so I don’t care what they look like. Since posting this thread, things have gotten a bit better. One polish is also coming into laying stage. (Waddles red) so it seems the other birds aren’t picking at her as much. But I 100% see a difference in their behavior. Of course I still go sit out there just in case but I’ve been letting them figure it out. I have to turn the lights out at night anyway. I have found that I’ll turn on their coop light, mainly for the Roo, he’s a big boy and has a hard time getting on a bar when it’s dark. So I found leaving a light on briefly while he gets on a bar and turning the light off has helped immensely. I really do truly appreciate your comments, not bashing me for my coop etc. it’s really nice, and really nice of you to take time out of your day to answer my questions.