Cream Legbar Hybrid Thread

[nicalandia]

Quote:
you are misinformed, exceptionally good egg layers like leghorns go back even before your grand parents were even born... they were never Dual purpose sized..

 

[DCchicken]

Quote: I never said the Leghorn were 10 pounds. But my grandparents had very large Leghorns, not the tiny ones the hatcheries sell today. I said that it was a goal weight.

 

[CibolaChooks]

We're you serious about heritage and production? Those sound like really good names to me.

yeah if there becomes two types thats the best option. No one's going to want to create a different name when we all have cream legbars

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
why are you comparing Hatchery leghorns with CCL or any other Leghorn for that matter? we all know show quality Leghorns are larger than hatchery type, still this does not make them Dual Purpose, I think the males would have to break at leas 8 pounds to be concider a DP breed, and I have yet to see a 8 pound Leghorn rooster, not in the past nor present.. big males do reach 7 pounds

 

[DCchicken]

Quote: I am comparing them because large, dual purpose Leghorns used to exist. Now, however, most if not all of the Leghorns come from hatchery stock which has dramatically changed the breed to be some of the best layers.

CCLs can now be purchased from a hatchery. So in time, it is likely that the same thing will happen to them.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
this is ture, thats why the SOP needs to be created for.. for a set weight... BUT keep in mind that GFF and other Hatcheries got their stock from actual british breedrs that had to follow(or at least should have) the British SOP, so these birds sold by GFF can trace their lineage from British breeders and as bad as some are(under weight) they are not trully hatchery type as there has only been a few years since the american hatcheries have been selling them... but you are right with time there will be a clear difference between Hatchery CCL and Breeders CCL....

 

[ChicKat]

It is not changing the breed. There are two views on the original intent of the breed. Some read Punnet's work and see layers. Others (myself included) think the intention was dual purpose as all birds of that era were usually used as dual-purpose. I have memories of my grandparent's Leghorns and they were more dual-purpose rather than the hybrid laying only version we have now.

Like you, I seem to recall that the CL was referenced as a dual purpose bird in some places from Punnet's time - especially after WWI. Also my dh's grandmother raised White Leghorns and the WLs were the bird on the table for Sunday dinner. -- (Although with lots of family at the table it may have been more than one solo chicken.) We probably have no idea how starving Great Britain was right after WWI.

Times have changed and we expect much more food than folks did back in the day. IMO - the 1-pound 'Cornish Game hen' in the supermarket can easily serve 2 people...and I have been in restaurants where that (1/2 hen) is "a serving".

If you got a 10# or even an 8# rooster, what size would the corresponding hen be? Another trait that makes the CL an excellent bird is the feed-conversion-ratio. I had a Golden Comet that weighted about 3 1/2# and laid a JUMBO or Extra Large egg daily. Just looking at feed conversion for egg laying is a huge economy - and feed conversion for meat production would also be advantageous. Some of the points we are discussing are relative. IMO the CL can be an all around bird - and used for dual purpose. To make the breed particularly larger, something is gained, and something is also lost. JMO....

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
if you gain meat you lose productivity and overall egg laying, there is a reazon the Battery Type White Leghorns are so thin looking with long long backs...they produce Tons of eggs with a feed/egg ratio near perfect ChicKat you have seen the Old Pics and Drawings of Punnetts Legbars right? those birds look egg layers to me... infact Pease and others introduce even more white leghorn blood in to the breed to make them more productive not heavy dual purpose.. In 1939 Michael Pearce was trying to improve the productivity of the Gold Legbar by crossing it with high laying White Leghorn

 

[DCchicken]

Quote: You cannot compare today's hybrids with Leghorns of the past. I also think that it is ok if some minor egg laying capability is lost to gain a dual purpose breed. If I wanted insane amounts of eggs, I would buy commercial Leghorn hybrids. I don't and neither do my customers. They want an auto-sexing dual purpose breed like the Crested Cream Legbar.

 

[Laingcroft]

I’ll add my two cents on this topic as well. WARNING – Long.

I have been unable to find quotable material in any of the articles read thus far as to Punnett’s production purpose for the Legbar. If someone does have a citable statement from Punnett, please post it. These are the verifiable facts: Punnett developed the Legbar as an experiment in auto-sexing chickens just after WWI (1920s) (Journal of Genetics – The Legbar - . http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/41/1.pdf )

What is the value in auto-sexing chicks? To determine male / female at hatch, eliminating a need for (training and payment of) vent sexing staff and to best utilize expensive or limited resources (feed & housing) for one sex over the other. So which sex is more important? In a dual purpose breed, numbers of both male and female are desirable, one for eggs and one/both for meat. If both are utilized, there is no need to select at hatch; therefore, the logical conclusion is that auto-sexing allows one to select for more females and fewer males at hatch, indicating a market preference for eggs over meat.

Now we know the –bar part of the equation, the Barred Plymouth Rock, is a dual purpose breed but Punnett chose it for the barring gene according to the article. The Leg- part of the equation, the Brown Leghorn, was used for its sexual dimorphism between the male and female plumage, again a component of auto-sexing, not functional purpose. In 1930 he began experiments with the blue egg laying Chilean hens. Again the focus on eggs. The Cream Project arose from those experiments and focused on crossing with various colours in the Leghorn. (Journal of Genetics – The Blue Egg http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/27/465.pdf ) At some point the Cream birds were crossed with a Legbar, resulting in the Crested Cream Legbar which was standardized and the SOP accepted by the UK poultry authority. Subsequently the Crested Cream Legbar diminished in popularity and were brought back by various breeders in the 1980s, presumably to the same SOP.

The (Crested) Cream Legbar at the time we began acquiring them from Greenfire in 2011/2 were known as an egg laying breed in their country of origin and their size there was set at 2.70-3.40kg (6-7lb) for cocks and 2-2.70kg (4-6lb). Since the APA requires one ideal weight instead of a range, 7 lbs was selected for our cocks and 6 lbs for hens – both the high side of the British weight range. Note that these weights are already larger than that of the Leghorn which is 6 lbs for cocks and 4.5 lbs for hens, yet smaller than the Plymouth Rock at 9.5 lbs for cocks and 7.5 lbs for hens.

Other interesting notes from the APA Standard of the Plymouth Rock, a dual purpose breed, “Overlarge specimens are not to be desired, they become clumsy and poor producers. They are not the active useful fowl desired for this dual purpose breed.” From the Leghorn SOP, “[Leghorns] comprise a group characterized by great activity, hardiness and prolific egg-laying abilities. Aside from their [beauty and variety] as exhibition specimens, their excellent productive qualities are valuable assets of the breed. Breeders, exhibitors and judges should pay due regard to the Standard weight of the Leghorns.” In reading these comments it appears that deviations in size [form] over the standards reduces function.

Since the Cream Legbar was based on the Legbar/Leghorn, and is distinguished from the other Cambridge breeds by its blue egg production, it makes sense for our draft standard to remain as is with respect to its economic qualities of “Especially noted for the auto-sexing feature in offspring, and production of eggs. […] blue or green.” The current draft standard weights are already midway between the Legbar’s parent breeds. What is the benefit to increasing its standard size by two pounds or more, possibly diminishing its egg production characteristics? Seven pound cocks and six pound hens are decent sizes for standard chickens and would certainly dress out to a reasonable table size of an earlier time (pre-Cornish X). Dominques, Andalusians, Barnvelders and Welsummers are four other breeds with an ideal weight of 7 lbs. for the cock.

And last, but certainly not least, the (Crested) Cream Legbar is what it is --- and still considered critical. Its standard was set 60 years ago, give or take, with direct input from its creator. If we don't like that standard, then we don't breed to it or outcross and don't call it the Crested Cream Legbar. If one truly wants a meaty auto-sexing Cambridge breed there are several already in need of dedicated breeders: the Brussbar (8-10# cocks), Buffbars (Orpington 8-10# cocks) and Wybars (Wyandotte 8-9# cocks)

Quote DCChicken:
I take this to be an acknowledgement that aiming for a dual purpose CCL would sacrifice something the breed already HAS i.e. egg production characteristics, to gain what it DOESN'T i.e. meat production, in order to make it dual purpose. Why is egg production such an anathema to you? There aren't quite so many non-hybrid egg laying breeds out there and so many fantastic dual purpose breeds already, several also in need of preservation. And as noted above there are plenty of large Cambridge auto-sexing breeds in need of breeders too. Why must the CCL be changed from what it is to a bigger dual purpose breed?

If you (and your customers) really want something like the CCL: an auto-sexing, cream barred, blue egg gene carrying crested chicken in a larger size that lays fewer eggs, then by all means select for those characteristics in your flock, you don't need the standard to do so; but please stop trying to alter the breed and impose your ideals upon others who are trying to preserve the Crested Cream Legbar described in the Standard as drafted by Punnett and modified here only insofar as it needs to fit APA format. Aiming for 7 lb cocks and 6 lb hens is necessary to achieve that. 9 or 10 lb cocks is not.