Cream Legbar Working Group: Standard of Perfection

[redchicken9]

nice eggs on your avatar Redchicken9 what are they from?

Thank-you. Mixed backyard flock, mainly wyandottes and welsummers.

 

[ChicKat]

It's been amazing to see the level of attention and energy focused on this subject.

While many of the suggested changes reflect a great deal of thought, I'd respectfully suggest that deviating from the UK legbar standard by creating a different American standard potentially creates more problems than it solves.

Orpingtons provide a good example. UK-type Orpingtons have a much greater market value than their American Orpington counterparts because the UK Orps are seen as the most authentic example of the breed.

If we begin to intentionally breed legbars that are different from the UK standard then we will end up with two distinct populations: 'authentic' UK legbars and what some may perceive as less authentic American legbars. In the abstract this may not be a problem but the practical reality is the UK legbars may have more perceived value. It's important to maximize the value of legbars if we're serious about promoting the breed. The more valuable they are the more likely people are to take care of them and be better stewards of the breed.

My suggested course of action would be to simply adopt the UK standard for use in America, work with it a few years, and then decide whether the standard is somehow deficient and needs to be amended.

This is a really good insight. Thanks stoneunhenged! The wording needs to become American English, and the format needs to be changed to what fits the requirements of the APA. I think that the long-term development and well being of this breed will be enhanced while they are considered a very valuable bird.

So with that being said.... I would wonder if we couldn't accelerate the completion of the standards part to mid-November instead of another full month. (from my project management days I remember the axiom that the task will take the amount of time allotted + 10%, so deadlines sometimes become a little painful) --

The future club will iron out the SOP - based upon the draft from this working group. I think club formation before too long would be helpful, and I really think it would be in everyone's best interest to get a database started -- while entering blood-lines would be less complex.

So I guess I'm the minority vote here to say let's not go another month. :O)

 

[redchicken9]

It's been amazing to see the level of attention and energy focused on this subject.

While many of the suggested changes reflect a great deal of thought, I'd respectfully suggest that deviating from the UK legbar standard by creating a different American standard potentially creates more problems than it solves.

Orpingtons provide a good example. UK-type Orpingtons have a much greater market value than their American Orpington counterparts because the UK Orps are seen as the most authentic example of the breed.

If we begin to intentionally breed legbars that are different from the UK standard then we will end up with two distinct populations: 'authentic' UK legbars and what some may perceive as less authentic American legbars. In the abstract this may not be a problem but the practical reality is the UK legbars may have more perceived value. It's important to maximize the value of legbars if we're serious about promoting the breed. The more valuable they are the more likely people are to take care of them and be better stewards of the breed.

My suggested course of action would be to simply adopt the UK standard for use in America, work with it a few years, and then decide whether the standard is somehow deficient and needs to be amended.

One vote, stay with the BPS standard, which to date is generally what we have done.

Both standards have formats, we started with the BPS and stated what we understood or didn't. Then moved the language into the APA style. The APA requires description in a few areas where the BPS is thin, so there is some add in to cover gaps. From the review of the BPS, neither the terms wedge-shaped or stiltiness passed as great descriptors for us. The wedge shaped body, is now described as "Moderately broad at the shoulders, narrowing slightly toward the tail" and second we removed the description stiltiness. The BPS has copyright. Language will need not to be an infringement for the APA to copyright it for their publication. Since a conversion of language has to happen, I think it's fine to begin now. Even with what has been done some language shaping is still necessary. A review process should repeat, perhaps at the frequency of every two years until breed recognition.

Ultimately petitioning for recognition includes having (1) history of origin and breeding background (another group working on this), proposed standard (happening here), (2) affidavits of not less than 5 breeders stating they have bred the breed/variety for not less than 5 years and that it produces not less than 50% of all specimens reasonably true to type, color, size, and comb, (3) official showing for 2 years prior containing 2 or more cocks, hens, cockerels, pullets, (4) deposit of money for standard to be in text, (5) committee on standards announces show with not less than 50 specimens, five in each class (cock, hen, cockerel, pullet), and (5) when satisfied breed/variety meets all requirements it goes to Board of Directors for approval.

Your vital role is all through this, however (2) being of special concern. I would ask you to judge for yourself if current offspring are reasonably true to type, color, size, and comb. If this is going to pull together, it's going to pull together on all our backs.

 

[stoneunhenged]

Quote:

One vote, stay with the BPS standard, which to date is generally what we have done.

Both standards have formats, we started with the BPS and stated what we understood or didn't. Then moved the language into the APA style. The APA requires description in a few areas where the BPS is thin, so there is some add in to cover gaps. From the review of the BPS, neither the terms wedge-shaped or stiltiness passed as great descriptors for us. The wedge shaped body, is now described as "Moderately broad at the shoulders, narrowing slightly toward the tail" and second we removed the description stiltiness. The BPS has copyright. Language will need not to be an infringement for the APA to copyright it for their publication. Since a conversion of language has to happen, I think it's fine to begin now. Even with what has been done some language shaping is still necessary. A review process should repeat, perhaps at the frequency of every two years until breed recognition.

Ultimately petitioning for recognition includes having (1) history of origin and breeding background (another group working on this), proposed standard (happening here), (2) affidavits of not less than 5 breeders stating they have bred the breed/variety for not less than 5 years and that it produces not less than 50% of all specimens reasonably true to type, color, size, and comb, (3) official showing for 2 years prior containing 2 or more cocks, hens, cockerels, pullets, (4) deposit of money for standard to be in text, (5) committee on standards announces show with not less than 50 specimens, five in each class (cock, hen, cockerel, pullet), and (5) when satisfied breed/variety meets all requirements it goes to Board of Directors for approval.

Your vital role is all through this, however (2) being of special concern. I would ask you to judge for yourself if current offspring are reasonably true to type, color, size, and comb. If this is going to pull together, it's going to pull together on all our backs.

Yes, all of those are very valid points. When I say "adopt the UK standard," I'm speaking in a conceptual sense. I agree that formatting needs to be edited to conform to APA formatting and British vernacular needs to be substituted with an Americanized description. But, my point is that the substance of the UK standard shouldn't change; for example, I wouldn't recommend substituting our color preferences over the British preference or trying to change the shape or emphasis of the physical details of the breed. I think the measure of our success should be to have the Brits clamoring to import into the UK our American legbars within the next ten years because our birds have been taken to an even higher level by a group of dedicated and successful US legbar breeders.

 

[ChicKat]

One vote, stay with the BPS standard, which to date is generally what we have done.

Both standards have formats, we started with the BPS and stated what we understood or didn't. Then moved the language into the APA style. The APA requires description in a few areas where the BPS is thin, so there is some add in to cover gaps. From the review of the BPS, neither the terms wedge-shaped or stiltiness passed as great descriptors for us. The wedge shaped body, is now described as "Moderately broad at the shoulders, narrowing slightly toward the tail" and second we removed the description stiltiness. The BPS has copyright. Language will need not to be an infringement for the APA to copyright it for their publication. Since a conversion of language has to happen, I think it's fine to begin now. Even with what has been done some language shaping is still necessary. A review process should repeat, perhaps at the frequency of every two years until breed recognition.

Ultimately petitioning for recognition includes having (1) history of origin and breeding background (another group working on this), proposed standard (happening here), (2) affidavits of not less than 5 breeders stating they have bred the breed/variety for not less than 5 years and that it produces not less than 50% of all specimens reasonably true to type, color, size, and comb, (3) official showing for 2 years prior containing 2 or more cocks, hens, cockerels, pullets, (4) deposit of money for standard to be in text, (5) committee on standards announces show with not less than 50 specimens, five in each class (cock, hen, cockerel, pullet), and (5) when satisfied breed/variety meets all requirements it goes to Board of Directors for approval.

Your vital role is all through this, however (2) being of special concern. I would ask you to judge for yourself if current offspring are reasonably true to type, color, size, and comb. If this is going to pull together, it's going to pull together on all our backs.

Really excellent summary redchicken9!!

Just a comment regarding #2 -- sometimes I see photos of other people's cream legbars on these threads and have to do a double take to make sure they aren't the ones I have in my photo-gallery!! ;O) I think that one of the great things we have going is the true-ness of these birds IMO. If 5-years starts for those breeding in 2012 - the goal could be met by 2017 or 2018......

#3. Official showing - put on by the APA or another organization....if you have the info, I'm curious. Thanks!!

 

[redchicken9]

Here’s my thoughts.

A standard is only useful if it is understood. Most of us have little experience with the American Standard of Perfection. This reflects myself. Few of us own such a text or without effort access one. Few have the British Poultry Standards, I did not have one 30 days ago and I infer Walt did not have one 30 days ago. The purpose is not who has what, it is how do we know we have a cream legbar when we have one. What makes a cream legbar different from a mutt or different from a leghorn? What should be it’s stable and referencing traits?

Going through a standard description is painful (or fun), tedious (or exciting) depending on who you are. I’d say most new users of any technical item sit in the first camp. This is not an easy thing to do. It takes time.

What is the face of the vast number of current cream legbar owners? They are like me, small-scale owners/investors, with little to no breeding knowledge. They are inclined to re-coup upfront cost through sales. Some may choose to continue small-scale breeding as a side source income, others will not. They have a bird they are passionate about and whom they were introduced through a single source. As ChicKat expressed what they see influences what they consider to be a cream legbar. People are not inclined to change from what they have, unless they have good reason to do so.

When I announced the idea of a draft standard, it was to participate and allow others the same opportunity. As above, some portion of stakeholders are small-scale, novice breeders.

First it takes knowledge, it takes knowledge of what you have and where you want to be. Many of us do not have the knowledge of what our birds look like, what the terms mean, and what they should be. Should we defer seeking that knowledge until later? If you do not have a baseline on where you start, how do you address where you are heading.

Even those with knowledge have some uncertainty. Here’s a perfect quote from Laingcroft: Does anyone have a photo or links to photos of the ideal Cream Legbar per the standard above? From the written description, my Cream Legbar rooster isn't a cream legbar at all. He is crele colored with chestnut barred saddle, predominantly cream with some chestnut, blending to dark gray barring in the hackles. The description above, with mostly cream and grey seems more like a cuckoo colored bird to me, with some autosomal red leakage (chestnut smudges permissible and some salmon in the breast.).

I think it is important for us to decide now. As Stoneunhenged states: If we begin to intentionally breed legbars that are different from the UK standard then we will end up with two distinct populations: 'authentic' UK legbars and what some may perceive as less authentic American legbars. In the abstract this may not be a problem but the practical reality is the UK legbars may have more perceived value. It's important to maximize the value of legbars if we're serious about promoting the breed. The more valuable they are the more likely people are to take care of them and be better stewards of the breed.

We need to know what we have now and how that differs and is that difference acceptable or not acceptable. Here Fowlman01 (post 407) states: I understand what you are saying...that is why the color description needs to be accurate. Judges are trained to understand the color descriptions in the SOP. The keepers of CL's need to know APA/ABA terminology before you folks get too far into this. Someone ....at least one person needs to own a 2010 APA Standard, so that this is not a blue sock issue. Until someone working on this project reads at least the first 40 pages of the SOP all of this will be like looking at blue socks. So far I have seen three different colors being called CL's...not subtle shades of color ...three pretty different colored males....with varying shades within those three.

So even though some may not see any color difference, may prefer the color differences, or want to move on, if we do not have this discussion we do a great disservice to this breed and its future on American shores.

Here is what Greenfire Farms says about their importation process: In early 2011, two breeding groups of cream legbars was imported into the United States by Greenfire Farms. Not only was Greenfire Farms the first to import this breed, we are the only source for unrelated cream legbars in the United States. Later that year, we imported additional cream legbars with complementary traits. The genetics of these newest imports will be available in many of the legbars we sell in 2013. We cannot select chicks from a specific breeding group when filling orders.

None of us have any idea of the 2013 chicks are more representative of the British Poultry Standards for cream legbar or other features. Even if they are more representative, it means a series of choice for small-scale stakeholders. The prime choices are to buy again and hope that what is received is more representative (no guarantee) or selectively breed from currently owned stock.

As Dak states: I think it is also important the CL breeders develop thick skin because show quality birds are hard to come by in any breed, and there will need to be sufficient numbers of these shown to gain acceptance. It will take a well coordinated effort among CL breeders. It will take years, but learning the ins and outs of showing birds at an APA level will make it easier. It is important to separate this effort from the "new breed" fad.

If the well-coordinated effort does not begin now, it will not bode well down the road. If we are capricious, given to sudden and unaccountable changes, it will also do us no favors. Should you push towards deadlines, absolutely, but do we have an idea if they are adequate to consider the factors we are looking at. My personal belief is that Fowlman01 had a hearty laugh over the concept of drafting standards in 30 days, even if you are following an existing standard. We have done well.

Fowlman01: As a poultry judge my opinion is that the birds best showing what you want in a CL are the Scar birds a few pages back. The crest may be overdone....not sure as I am unclear what the crest should look like. Keep in mind what you "like" has no bearing on what the birds 'should" look like.....that is if you want them to replicate the breed as it was developed by the British. If you want something different they can look like anything you like.

I think the British Poultry Standards are fine. However, I don’t think it’s fine to say we will follow these standards, if no one is. I have no prior experience with breeding or shows, however to date, it is my opinion that none of our birds adequately reflect the British Poultry Standards. I do not see it in my home flock. I do not see it in the birds shown at Greenfire Farms.

Here I quote Greenfire Farms: Can you buy less expensive birds that lay nice eggs and are fun to keep? Absolutely. You can go to the local feed store and buy perfectly nice chicks for $3 each. We can’t compete on price against large commercial hatcheries. But, we try to offer what they can’t offer: the very rarest chickens of the most beautiful and interesting varieties, raised in a comfortable and natural environment.

Cream legbars are expensive and rare. However, they shouldn’t be breed like $3 feed store chicks if you want them to represent the rarity and quality of the cream legbar breed, which is British, which has a written standard. Here refer back to what stoneunhenged states above about perceived quality.

I believe if you want to have a club or want to have a registry you begin with a standard. If everyone agrees to the UK standard, there is less to debate (5 point combs versus 6 or 7 points). I am happy with this. However it would be unfair to not address that there are dissenting views: ChicKat: I wonder if there is a 'middle ground' where owners in the USA needn't slavishly copy the UK standards and birds, (for example, I think that there is consensus to drop the olive eggs) -while still remaining true to Punnett's original aspirations. - It would be sad to feel the affection for the breed as it now exists here... and then discover that the SOP departs enough away from the birds that we got from GFF to be substantially different, and then one would have to go toward a standard of perfection that they liked less than what we now have. JMO.

To be circular, why is it that another look would be preferred, because it is what is seen, and has been advertised, and is what we dominately have here. So if Greenfire Farms, as the current virtually sole source continues to provide birds that do not closely match the only currently written standard, we are likely heading towards a differing American and a UK breed standard, unless the small scale breeders work extremely hard. Is it fair to put the burden only on small scale owners? Is it fair to those purchasing expensive birds in good faith that they are cream legbars, if they differ? Don’t these questions need to be answered?

We need knowledge now and consensus for a solid working draft now, so we are not wasting our time and finances. More than likely most of us are not going to be breeders of quality show birds, but if we don’t define this, we are all more than likely purchasing, selling, and breeding poorly. This goes from top to bottom, bottom to top, and those in the middle, ie. we’re all in the same pot here. If that draft parallels the British Poultry Standards, with consensus, I vote for it. If that draft deviates from the British Poultry Standards, with consensus, I vote for it. Because I vote for a standard.

Within this I do have some preferences, no point in not sharing, because that’s part of the process. As a group we want to spare years of anguish up front. This is the way of doing it. That said even 60 days to come to a consensus may be inadequate, it’s really a matter of what it takes to learn and resolve any issues that come up. I am not able to participate in a shorter time frame; too many of us have other jobs and responsibilities. It would be inadequate. Nor can I arbitrarily make a choice without a review and discussion. It’s really not mine to choose, it’s all of us. Realistically, not all of us may want to have a discussion and hear and see what is perfect or flawed in our current stock of cream legbars. However, that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done.

Again, I’d like to continue.

 

[redchicken9]

Quote:

Yes, all of those are very valid points. When I say "adopt the UK standard," I'm speaking in a conceptual sense. I agree that formatting needs to be edited to conform to APA formatting and British vernacular needs to be substituted with an Americanized description. But, my point is that the substance of the UK standard shouldn't change; for example, I wouldn't recommend substituting our color preferences over the British preference or trying to change the shape or emphasis of the physical details of the breed. I think the measure of our success should be to have the Brits clamoring to import into the UK our American legbars within the next ten years because our birds have been taken to an even higher level by a group of dedicated and successful US legbar breeders.

How will you follow/ lead on this?

 

[Alfred T Lee]

I was so excited when I read your thread on establishing a standard for Cream Leg Bars. I am planning on purchasing some of these rare and unusual looking birds during the Spring of 2013. In fact I was on the website of Greenfire Farm earlier this morning (2AM) reading about their Cream Leg Bars and how instrumental they were in bringing them to America.

Best of Luck,

Alfred

 

[blackbirds13]

Here’s my thoughts.

I think it is important for us to decide now. As Stoneunhenged states: If we begin to intentionally breed legbars that are different from the UK standard then we will end up with two distinct populations: 'authentic' UK legbars and what some may perceive as less authentic American legbars. In the abstract this may not be a problem but the practical reality is the UK legbars may have more perceived value. It's important to maximize the value of legbars if we're serious about promoting the breed. The more valuable they are the more likely people are to take care of them and be better stewards of the breed.

None of us have any idea of the 2013 chicks are more representative of the British Poultry Standards for cream legbar or other features. Even if they are more representative, it means a series of choice for small-scale stakeholders. The prime choices are to buy again and hope that what is received is more representative (no guarantee) or selectively breed from currently owned stock.

I think the British Poultry Standards are fine. However, I don’t think it’s fine to say we will follow these standards, if no one is. I have no prior experience with breeding or shows, however to date, it is my opinion that none of our birds adequately reflect the British Poultry Standards. I do not see it in my home flock. I do not see it in the birds shown at Greenfire Farms.

Cream legbars are expensive and rare. However, they shouldn’t be breed like $3 feed store chicks if you want them to represent the rarity and quality of the cream legbar breed, which is British, which has a written standard. Here refer back to what stoneunhenged states above about perceived quality.

I believe if you want to have a club or want to have a registry you begin with a standard. If everyone agrees to the UK standard, there is less to debate (5 point combs versus 6 or 7 points). I am happy with this. However it would be unfair to not address that there are dissenting views: ChicKat: I wonder if there is a 'middle ground' where owners in the USA needn't slavishly copy the UK standards and birds, (for example, I think that there is consensus to drop the olive eggs) -while still remaining true to Punnett's original aspirations. - It would be sad to feel the affection for the breed as it now exists here... and then discover that the SOP departs enough away from the birds that we got from GFF to be substantially different, and then one would have to go toward a standard of perfection that they liked less than what we now have. JMO.

To be circular, why is it that another look would be preferred, because it is what is seen, and has been advertised, and is what we dominately have here. So if Greenfire Farms, as the current virtually sole source continues to provide birds that do not closely match the only currently written standard, we are likely heading towards a differing American and a UK breed standard, unless the small scale breeders work extremely hard. Is it fair to put the burden only on small scale owners? Is it fair to those purchasing expensive birds in good faith that they are cream legbars, if they differ? Don’t these questions need to be answered?

We need knowledge now and consensus for a solid working draft now, so we are not wasting our time and finances. More than likely most of us are not going to be breeders of quality show birds, but if we don’t define this, we are all more than likely purchasing, selling, and breeding poorly. This goes from top to bottom, bottom to top, and those in the middle, ie. we’re all in the same pot here. If that draft parallels the British Poultry Standards, with consensus, I vote for it. If that draft deviates from the British Poultry Standards, with consensus, I vote for it. Because I vote for a standard.

I will be breeding towards the UK SOP. I decided that a while back and am trying my best to educate myself towards that goal. I am not as big a fan of the very colorful birds as others (though I appreciate their appeal) and do think there will be issues later with too much color or type deviance between the birds here and what the UK breed looks like, especially if a more representative bird comes on the scene. This may not be the only venue that attempts to bring the Cream Legbar towards APA acceptance and others may bring to the APA a bird more closely aligned with that SOP. I will go with whatever concensus is adopted here but depending on how much deviation from the British Standard of Perfection it contains I admit I may not breed forward entirely in compliance to it. I do think that in time to much of a deviation may be problematic in several areas, from cost to appeal to the perception of quality. I think that we need to remember we are not creating a standard that fits what we have but rather what the original breed is supposed to represent. In every breed there will be a good number of very attractive but sub-standard birds, the problem we have is a lot of us have these birds and they are not cheap and if we start referring to them as not a 'standard' Cream Legbar how do we then justify the cost of attaining them. I do not have an answer to this dilemma.

I think that it may be up to the smaller scale breeder to perfect the breed towards a standard unless a larger breeder takes it on with a concerted effort. I am not a supporter of making the SOP fit the birds we have as they are in whole...I cannot think of a single breed that does not require a careful, thoughtful and forward thinking breeding plan. There will and should be differences between the UK and the USA but as Fowlman01 said
Keep in mind what you "like" has no bearing on what the birds 'should" look like.....that is if you want them to replicate the breed as it was developed by the British. If you want something different they can look like anything you like.

I'm hoping to develop a decent flock of Cream Legbars that truly represent the breed whether I ever show or not. I am not worried about the Standard we develop deviating from my personal goals as I feel we need to have something to represent the breed. It will be a reliable reference for some or for others a springboard.

I have never bred anything before...well except my four boys

but I think this could be quite an exciting, frustrating but rewarding endeavor.

 

[stoneunhenged]

If the UK standard (adapted to an American format) is pursued I think the basic genetics for attaining that standard already exist in the US. I quote from a UK friend who has seen pictures of our birds and who has raised and shown some of the best cream legbars in the UK:

I went through alot of birds with gold neck hackles to start with! I finally managed to source some with cream/grey neck hackles and a boy who had hardly any colour and went from there really. In the first year I bred the light coloured male with hens who had more grey than cream in their neck hackles as this mating produced good pullets with pretty much 50/50 cream/grey necks and went on from there. Your birds look pretty nice to me, if I had to find any fault I would say that the males chest looks slightly dark and the female's barring is quite distinctive, it should be a bit softer. The male has a great straight comb though! They are the right colour so you have a good base to work from.

So, with the focused effort of the group here and others who will come later I don't foresee any insurmountable barriers to achieving the UK standard with the steady application of effort over time.