CSU's Welsummer SOP

faykokoWV

Mrs Fancy Plants
11 Years
Nov 4, 2008
3,482
270
301
Cross Lanes, WV
Bumping this up. What do you people say about the body of this cockerel?

And these hens?
commenting just on the body shape. The rooster in front has a nice rounded chest that continues to the leg - some I've seen flatten out towards the leg, the full roundness is great. Nice flat back, sloping just slightly towards the tail. Wing carriage just a touch low on the rooster in the front. Over all a very balanced looking bird. The hens are a little harder to critique as they look like they were in motion and I'm not getting a good side view or straight front view. The one on the left has her tail lower than the desired 60 degrees. Both are nicely proportioned. Good amount of roundness to the chest down to the legs and the backs appear to be flat (hard to see well in this picture though) Wing carriage looks good too.
 

Dr Bjorn Netland

Songster
11 Years
Jan 4, 2009
168
31
137
Lighter shaft in where? The chest? The back?

I like the roosters too!
While I like both the hens and the roosters of this Dutch line, and might even prefer them over our own type, I also think that the British have done a better job maintaining the terra cotta colored large eggs for which the breed is famous. Therefore, I would be very hesitant to go for the Dutch type as regards lighter shaft but believe we can continue that requirement in our North American birds. The cockbirds, however, in the Dutch birds are amazingly beautiful, including color...problem is, they would probably produce daughters without the distinctly lighter shaft... The way I read the APA SOP, the light shaft should be part of the overall pattern, both back and breast. The stippling is another issue, as many of the birds that I see (and quite a few that I have raised) tend to have a stippling that is far too coarse, almost bordering on lacing. It is not an easy breed to work with, and the type poses another challenge. How come one can see Welsummers awarded BOB or Best Continental with a back line that slopes a lot more than even a Mallorca?
 

Eissens

Chirping
6 Years
Jul 25, 2013
98
27
51
Groningen city, Netherland
commenting just on the body shape. The rooster in front has a nice rounded chest that continues to the leg - some I've seen flatten out towards the leg, the full roundness is great. Nice flat back, sloping just slightly towards the tail. Wing carriage just a touch low on the rooster in the front. Over all a very balanced looking bird. The hens are a little harder to critique as they look like they were in motion and I'm not getting a good side view or straight front view. The one on the left has her tail lower than the desired 60 degrees. Both are nicely proportioned. Good amount of roundness to the chest down to the legs and the backs appear to be flat (hard to see well in this picture though) Wing carriage looks good too.
I totally agree with you. The left hen has indeed her tail lower, even when she is not in motion. For all that I'll keep her. Below you find another pictures of these 2 hens.
I'm very happy with the rooster in front of the picture, he has something special (rounded chest, nice flat back)
I have sold the other rooster to a fancier.
The mother of the hens and rooster is a hen from Harrie Pelgrim. Their farther is from a breeder which is also a good breeder, but not as well known as Harrie.

In the Netherlands bodyshape is not an issue, we have no problems with it. Our problems in the large Welsumer are the intensity of the black striping in the hackle of the hens (it must be interrupted by the ground colour, most time it is almost black with a green sheen), the intensity of the ground colour (brown with a red reflection) and the wattles of the cockerels (without folds)

 
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Dr Bjorn Netland

Songster
11 Years
Jan 4, 2009
168
31
137
I totally agree with you. The left hen has indeed her tail lower, even when she is not in motion. For all that I'll keep her. Below you find another pictures of these 2 hens.
I'm very happy with the rooster in front of the picture, he has something special (rounded chest, nice flat back)
I have sold the other rooster to a fancier.
The mother of the hens and rooster is a hen from Harrie Pelgrim. Their farther is from a breeder which is also a good breeder, but not as well known as Harrie.

In the Netherlands bodyshape is not an issue, we have no problems with it. Our problems in the large Welsumer are the intensity of the black striping in the hackle of the hens (it must be interrupted by the ground colour, most time it is almost black with a green sheen), the intensity of the ground colour (brown with a red reflection) and the wattles of the cockerels (without folds)

Marcel, The Welsummers seen at shows here in North America (Piet's birds recently shown in Alberta, Canada, being the exception) have several challenges to overcome: comb issues (twisted comb, thumb marks, overgrown comb onto the beak, size), wattles (much too large, open, and with folds and wrinkles), ground color (uneven distribution of red and brown), peppering/stippling, white in flights, tail, and fluff, leg color, and unbalanced shape (back showing a rather steep downward slope toward the tail). I am going by only what I have seen personally. Fortunately, some breeders are making significant progress in addressing some of these defects, but there is still a long way ahead for true excellence to be achieved, which may in part be due to some confusion as to what constitutes an ideal type. From the start, there were the two quite different types: the German exhibition and the UK utility types, and I think Horst Greszmiehl tried to strike a compromise of sorts, though mostly following the UK and Dutch standards (I really don't know, but he was the person who submitted the standard proposal at the qualifying meet.). We have simply gone with what we had and tried to move ahead from there. Many breeders have been very careful to maintain the large, matte terra cotta egg (sometimes speckled), which I personally am very happy about since it was the one breed characteristic that attracted most people to the breed in the first place. My question is this: Are you able to improve the egg color/production by crossing with the UK utility Wellies (nuthoenders) without sacrificing too much in type and other show qualities? I think this point is of considerable interest to many people here, as the price of feed has become outrageously high and in the long run makes breeding for show quality without regard to utility traits too expensive for many. Also, I think the Welsummer egg is just as much a part of the SOP for Welsummers as all the obvious show characteristics. Any comment? Your contributions are always instructive and ones I always look forward to.
Bjorn
 

Eissens

Chirping
6 Years
Jul 25, 2013
98
27
51
Groningen city, Netherland
Quote:I can understand why the CSU has choosen for a compromise between the German and the UK Standard. Uk birds do more like a Dutch Welsumer than the German Welsumer (in Type and Colour) It is good to focus on the shellcolour, because as you already said it is characteristic for this breed Unlike most other breeds, the Welsumer has a double challenge for a breeder : it is admired both for its eggs and for its looks. For almost all other breeds the egg is only a means of reproduction, and they must rely on their physical appearance to make themselves popular. I already have made a crossing with the UK utility Welsummer and the Dutch Welsumer. They told me that the rooster has the most influence on the shellcolour, so they advised me to cross a UK Welsummer rooster with some Dutch Welsumer hens. But I did also the other version, because I am a little bit stubborn/cocky (don't know the correct word): Dutch rooster crossed with UK hens Both crossings gave hens which layed an egg with a poor shellcolour, same colour like my Dutch Welsumer hens. So in my opinion it will take a long way to improve the shellcolour AND to keep the beautiful appearance of the Dutch Welsumer during this kind of crossings. So I keep them separeted.
 

EweSheep

Flock Mistress
13 Years
Jan 12, 2007
21,908
132
418
Land of Lincoln
Quote: Oh that is so frustrating! Dutch x British and British x Dutch matings seems to be very unsuccessful to you. I know Harrie got one of Nate's pullets to cross with his Dutch, so how was it going? Did it work for Harrie or was he just as disappointed in seeing the daughter's egg shell color? I would have thought the roo has a dominant trait for shell color. I am not sure if Harrie tried to use the Dutch x American mating, to get pullets, then take the sons of that mating to cross back to the original American hen (same as ours) then breed those pullets back to Dutch. I can see your differences and I would hate for you to spend too much time trying to maintain egg shell color on Dutch crosses.

So what is your long term plan on those crosses? Hoping to get some darker egg shell colors in a couple more generations and still be able to mold from the German into Dutch traits or is it lost forever?
 

maryhysong

Songster
7 Years
Aug 24, 2012
1,875
150
188
Claypool, Arizona
Quote: In Marans we are warned that when we cross different lines of birds that you will probably lose the egg color in the first generation. They recommend breeding the pullets back to their fathers to help bring it back in the second generation.

I would think in your case perhaps also breeding sons back to mothers. Since you crossed your UK and Dutch lines both ways, perhaps taking the best birds from each group and crossing them together will help? I'm not sure.
 

Eissens

Chirping
6 Years
Jul 25, 2013
98
27
51
Groningen city, Netherland
Quote:Brown eggshell color is a complex trait and it is been told that 13 genes have been proposed to account for the range in eggshell color. There are sex-linked egg colour genes, but also autosomal egg colour genes. In my understanding the locations (locus) of the brown eggshell genes are not known and it is not known how many brown modifying genes there are or where they are in relationship to the genes of known locations. Next year I will make the cross F1 rooster (UK rooster x Dutch hen) x UK hen and see what will happens with the shellcolour of the progeny.
 

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