Cubalaya Thread For Sharing Pics and Discussing Our Birds

[cubalaya]

i heard something about faverolles or dorkings being the dual purpose fowl bred into the cubalaya. definitely spanish games crossed on oriental games (fillipino double tail, pheasant malay, asil type birds). there was an article about black cubalayas with a fifth toe which could be the dorking influence. saladin could post more about the history of cubalayas . the information is out there if you know how to search for it.

 

[gallorojo]

The article which mentions the 5 th toe and the Faverolles is the Claus Twisselman SPPA article on the black Cubalayas which is on the feathersite Cubalaya page. I don't doubt that Mr. Twisselman hatched some birds with 5 toes, but, that does not even remotely imply that the Cubans used Faverolles or Dorkings in the creation of the breed. My feeling is that he either had a spontaneous mutation, a sport if you will, or, that someone else here in the states added Dorking at some point for whatever reason. The actual history of how the breed was made is very well documented in detail by the Cubans. You can read the story here-http://www.ultimatefowl.com/wiki/index.php?title=Cubalaya.
The Twisselman article is a source of frustration for me as its often quoted as fact various places when it is just one man's opinion who did not have access to the true history. ( I' m not talking about your remarks here, Cubalaya, I mean references online) I have heard rumors from people I would trust that Dorking was added to some of the colors/strains way back, same with Phoenix. Impossible to know for sure., that sort of thing is just speculation and hearsay unless the old breeders are talking, and they haven't for the most part been willing to respond to me. We do though how the Cubans made them and they used gamefowl, primarily Orientals.

 

[cubalaya]

crossing oriental games with spanish games could have resulted in 'game' crosses. an article stated that the cuban men used cubalayas for cockfigting but their wives wanted a bird that could produce eggs and meat. some compromise probably resulted in the use of dorkings or faverolles or some other dual purpose bird to put that quality in. on the other hand, asil crossed with english games created the cornish, which is not 'game'.

 

[gallorojo]

The article you are talking about is once again the Twisselman one located here-
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/Games/Cuba/SPPABkCuba.html
Personally I just dont think his theory has any factual or historical basis.

 

[cubalaya]

maybe i read that article one to many times.

 

[gallorojo]

It's not so much a bad article, is that I just don't agree with all of it, especially some of the details. Much of what he has to say is spot on. I was really hoping that Saladin would come on and add something to this.

 

[Oldhound]

Perhaps there will come a time when DNA typing will come to pass, giving a more conclusive answer to the breeds background. The Japanese govt, had DNA typing performed on their National Treasure breeds . Even then some of the results came back as " unknown' . Not that it is worth much but IMO we will probably never know all of the ingredients in the Cubalayas makeup

 

[saladin]

It's not so much a bad article, is that I just don't agree with all of it, especially some of the details. Much of what he has to say is spot on. I was really hoping that Saladin would come on and add something to this.

Dr. Braulio Saenz and I corresponded for a number of years. According to him, the Twisselman article was full of crap. Braulio stated to me over and over again that the Cubalaya was created for one purpose: to exhibit. It had nothing to do with cockfighting or eating...... ever.

 

[saladin]

Further, we know exactly what is in the Cubalayas makeup originally. Percentages: no, as this would be different with different breeders.

Do we know what has been added since in America? Yes and no; we know that Schmudde added Shamo. Did some had Pheonix? Probably. Have other things been added? Most likely. What: Only God in Heaven knows that answer.

Truely it makes little to no difference at this point. The Cubalaya is a composite breed. If we breed to the Standard with what we have that is all that matters.

In Chickens, Phenotype is all that matters. (So long as it can 'do' what it's suppose to 'do.')

 

[Oldhound]

Up to the 19th century and to some degree even afterward, all breeds of domestic animals, with a few exceptions( Asil, Arabian horses, Salukis etc) when registries came into existence, are composites. Form follows function , so if so and so's dog herded sheep better or what's his name's cow milked more a farmer would breed to the sire that produced that animal. Then breeding back to the phenotype that was preferred. I have to agree that it matters not what is in the stew or how it got there, just make the best of what we have . It's like trying to figure out where you caught the Flu instead of taking care of the problem. Breeding is about Selection. Fortunately most breed Standards have a degree of leeway for personal preferences where type is concerned and still conform, IMO. I do have my doubts about knowing what went on in everyones backyard, breed pens.