Delaware genetics for dummies?

[math ace]

Quote:

Absolutely no offense taking. I was hoping to get some feed back going. I think the only way we will get better birds is if we put some THICKER skin on and listen and learn!

I did not take any chest shots because I was trying to catch the brassiness and tail striping. However, his chest is really WIDE. . . . It may not have a deep enough BOWL, but it is real wide.
So, I think he will make a GOOD starting spot.

The tail angle should not be too hard to lower either. . . . Should be a lot easier to fix than the brassiness or green legs

The above pic shows him standing FLAT FOOTED and may show more of the desired bowl shape.

 

[tnchickenut]

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I'm not saying it CAN'T be bred out... I'm saying why bother? There is enough to deal with when dealing with Dels anyways... plus if you are breeding for preservation purposes, the green suggest crossed lines somewhere down the track.

I'm with you... let them go. Better to start over - you would spend less time and money. No one said you can't keep them as pets or layers!!!

 

[kathyinmo]

Personally, I would rather work on pale legs, than to have poor type. That is just my opinion, and is no way meant to try to say one way is any better than another. We all have our theories, and just have to give them a try. I am just happy to see an interest in the breed, and wish you all well in breeding them!

 

[tnchickenut]

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http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g420/cliff1801/IMG_1741.jpg

Absolutely no offense taking. I was hoping to get some feed back going. I think the only way we will get better birds is if we put some THICKER skin on and listen and learn!

I did not take any chest shots because I was trying to catch the brassiness and tail striping. However, his chest is really WIDE. . . . It may not have a deep enough BOWL, but it is real wide.
So, I think he will make a GOOD starting spot.

The tail angle should not be too hard to lower either. . . . Should be a lot easier to fix than the brassiness or green legs

The above pic shows him standing FLAT FOOTED and may show more of the desired bowl shape.

You are right about that... the tail is alot easier to fix! lol.

It's good to learn, but try to stay focused when breeding... Work on a fault or two at a time but don't lose focus of it total picture. ya know? You can't get anywhere with breeding ADD and you start to fix this, then you worry about that, then you are noticing something else... meanwhile you can be jumbling up the whole thing. At the same time, you can focus so much on one thing and not notice that something that you had going for you is getting worse because you were focused so much on something before.

In other words, don't lose your plusses just to fix your negatives... and don't start to fix negatives and jump around. Slow and steady. Chickens take time.

 

[bt2000]

Well I guess I'm going to be on the hunt for other Dells.

btw.. Just so everyone knows. NONE of these chicks or chickens will leave my place alive.

It seems to me if people don't do this it's going to be an ongoing battle. Even if bred out in my/your flock. Who's to say that it isn't going to be perpetuated by others with shall we say less than "honest" morals. I have a feeling that seeing the introduction of this, if it hasn't been an ongoing problem. Means that there is a pretty good spread of these traits.

And maybe some of the "breeders" need to be called out on this. This is something that has to be indicative of cross breeding somewhere in the line.

kathyinmo,

Now that I'm aware of it. The breeders that some of these were supposed to have come from "if that's even the case", was not Jesse McDaniel stock as far as I'm aware. I'm not saying someone could have been less than truthful. But I have been seeing more of "sale/bottom line" mentality when it comes to "pure breed" chickens. Thanks for the heads up on that. It's the kind of information that people need to keep things like this from happening.

The really sad thing is this. The only way now that I can assure that any other ones that I do get, DO NOT carry this "problem", is to actually keep some with the problem to rule it out from future stock. And that really sux!!

My original intention was to put many chicks on the ground to see exactly what I had to work with. This was actually my "start". Then I would have moved from there with "building the barn" so to speak.

btw I do have some 3 day old chicks right now. I'm going to keep track of when it begins to be noticeable as they age. I want to say 2-3 weeks but I can't say for sure. But I will be able to soon.

 

[math ace]

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I agree a 100% with this. . . .

I am a TRUE backyard chicken person. . . I don't have an agenda and I am not trying to make a quick fortune from the chickens.
I have YEARS to get it right. I am a SMALL time chicken person. We eat most of our own eggs AND give some of the rest away.
Keeping it small allows me the opportunity to be real selective in my breeding while keeping the feed bill down. . . .

In my plan to fix the green leg issue - - - I produce keeper pullets in each generation. The males get to go to freezer camp ( where most would end up anyways - -- after all HOW MANY MALES do we really need). The incorrect pullets can be sold ALL DAY LONG as barnyard mixes on craigslist. I like the solid start on the "BARN" and am willing to work with the legs. . .

The tail is a little high ( easy fix) and the chest needs to be deeper - - - - still fixable. This boy is still on the young side - - 7 months or so. I think he still has some filling in to do

He is real solid. It will be interesting to see how much he weighs this weekend

 

[kstaven]

Absolutely no offense taking. I was hoping to get some feed back going. I think the only way we will get better birds is if we put some THICKER skin on and listen and learn!

This happens to be one of the best statements I have seen on a breeder thread in some time. And just like everyone else out there: there are times when I really need to remember it and listen and learn even when another is ripping my pride and joy bird to bits. It has happened to me, and later I was to discover the person was actually providing what would normally be termed constructive criticism. It was just their manner of delivery was less than gentle. Later got to know this man better and once I discovered his nature and actual helpful intent I easily overlooked the delivery and learned a lot.​

 

[kstaven]

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What you said here is no different than you would see with a group of long term pro breeders. Ask 10 of them how they would approach a problem and get ten different answers. You are correct, no approach is wrong, just different from the way some others would do it. Just like no bird is ever perfect and going to produce perfect progeny. They are always a work in progress.

When you finally get that one really great bird, it is in truth a combination of your approach, dedication and some degree of luck. When get there, I hope you show him or her off with the pride you are entitled to show.

 

[kathyinmo]

I just thought I would post some of the information I have gathered regarding green legs....

Green legs are caused by a combination of the Yellow leg gene (which is recessive) and dermal melanin which is a bluish pigment under the skin.
Dermal melanin is usually controlled by a gene called ID. If your parent birds have yellow legs, then they possess the ID gene which Inhibits Dermal melanin.
When I talk about the green gene in Delawares, it's actually the ID gene combined with yellow skin gene. There is no single "green gene".

Problem: the recessive form "id" allows the formation of melanin under the skin, and thus green legs. The good news is that this is a sex linked characteristic, and this will help you determine who is causing your green legs.

Hens cannot "hide" the recessive green leg gene. They are either pure for yellow, or pure for green. Hens possess only one dermal melanin gene.

Roosters however, can carry the "green" gene while their legs are yellow because they possess TWO dermal melanin genes. The dominant form of the gene is to allow for yellow legs, so their second gene that causes green legs is "overruled" by the one that causes yellow.

So if both of your parent birds are yellow shanked, and you have green legged chicks, they should all be hens, and your rooster is the culprit. You don't want to use these hens or the parent rooster for breeding SOP Delawares.

About half the roosters from this breeding will carry the green leg gene like their father. You probably won't be able to tell which are carriers. Only the yellow shanked hens from this breeding can be certain not to pass this gene on to the next generation.

You can keep a green shanked hen to test breed any roosters for carrying the green gene. A pure Yellow shanked rooster should not throw ANY green legged chicks if mated to a green shanked hen. If he does, he's a carrier of the "green" gene.

females cannot be split ID/id+. ID is a sex linked gene so females are hemizygous, that is they have one or the other. ID/- or id+/-
Green legged hens are w/w id+/- , yellow skin but lack the Dermal Inhibitor
Yellow legged hens are w/w Id/-, yellow skin with the Dermal Inhibitor.

Males can have both so
Homozygous w/w ID/ID males will have clear yellow shanks, and can only produce yellow shanked pullets,
heterozygous w/w Id/id+ males will also have clear yellow shanks, but can produce both clear yellow & green shanked pullets.

There is a very close relationship between Barring & the Dermal Inhibitor, so in a breed such as Delawares I would not expect to see green shanks, especially as Delawares should be Wheaten birds, Wheaten is also a dermal colour inhibitor.

Genes such as Extended Black & Birchen do put black pigment into the shanks, but these genes should not be present in Delawares.
If anyone has been crossing in Barred Rock, these are Extended Black based.

 

[kstaven]

Genes such as Extended Black & Birchen do put black pigment into the shanks, but these genes should not be present in Delawares.
If anyone has been crossing in Barred Rock, these are Extended Black based.

Might be me tonight, but for some reason this doesn't look right. In one sentence you appear to say they should not be present in Delawares and in the next you say they are present in one of the breeds that is in the original foundation of the Delaware.​