Deworming thoughts/poll

[Shadrach]

I think a really important point is being overlooked here.
Say I routinely worm a flock.
Say I do this quarterly.
Different active ingredients in wormer's are in body effective for different lengths of time.
I haven't researched many but Flubenol for example has the strength to kill worms for about 2 hrs after digestion.
The dose needs to be repeated, over a period of 1 to 7 days, depending on the type of worms being treated.
Lets take the 7 days. So, for the next 11 weeks the chicken is unprotected against worms.
What happens if the chicken gets worms during this period?
It seems to me that routine worming is pointless. To be effective the chicken would need to have worms on the day the wormer was administered for the compound to be effective; or you would need to worm every week in the case of a 7 day course.

 

[dawg53]

You make a good point Sharach. Benzimidazoles including flubendazole dont stay in the system very long and are mostly excreted, resulting in short withdrawal periods rather than say, ivermectin. Albendazole stays in the chickens system for about 4-5 days and it's gone, others are gone sooner such as wazine/piperazine. Others such as ivermectin stay in the system much longer. Levamisol about 10 days. You have to look at the time of effectiveness vs reinfection. Wormers dont kill eggs, which requires a second worming, generally within 10 to 21 days depending what wormer is used. Some wormers are ineffective at different stages during the worms lifecycle, but they get nailed at one time or another with a repeated dose or length of effectiveness of the wormer used.
It's the soil that is that is the issue, contaminated with eggs and that's what causes reinfection, starting the worms lifecycle all over again.
So, how do you end the worms lifecycle?
If your birds free range; rotate pasture, keep grass cut short, keep everything as dry as possible, wet warm moist/wet soil is not a chickens friend. You will only have to worm perhaps twice a year, again, depending on the soil conditions. If your soil is much colder or desertlike, you might not have to worm birds but once a year or year and a half, it just depends.

Birds that are penned all the time and stay on the same soil all the time require frequent worming. Soil conditions apply here as well. Sand is best for penned up birds.
The bottom line is to break the worms lifecycle which can take time because the soil will contain worm eggs. Chickens peck the soil all the time, in doing so, they pick up worm eggs and swallow them, repeating the worms lifecycle.
It's important to take a look at the poultry worm(s) Direct and Indirect lifecycle.

 

[Dukes7779]

Thanks for everyone's replies. I appreciate both sides of the argument, take in all the personal experiences as well as the literature data provided. I then take all the information provided, apply it to my personal situation/geography/coop&run conditions and try to make the best informed decision and institute a plan for me. Thank you all for your time in responding to my thread!

 

[AmyJane725]

The question I'm running into personally when trying to decide is this:

I live in Western WA. We have a relatively cool climate and not humid, just very rainy (which I guess technically counts as humidity because there is water in the air, but it's rain, not vapor hanging around). I wouldn't call it tropical by any means, just really wet. My soil is rocky.

Do I fall under the "wet soil" = more worms, or the "cool soil" = less worms category? @dawg53

 

[getaclue]

Like Dawg, I live in Florida. It's hot, and humid here most of the year. While in the winter we do get a few nights that drop to freezing, by morning when the sun comes up, it warms up. We have plenty of wild birds, and get a lot of them that migrate south for the winter. That being said, we tend to get heavier wormloads in our soil than many of you will experience. Our conditions, and experience with worms might be totally different than many others on here.

One of the things I'm going to suggest is using some balance, and common sense. While your conditions, and experiences with worms may be totally different than ours, that does not mean our information is entirely wrong.

People generally provide information based on their own experiences. Surprisingly, quite a few people have had fecals done, and the results said there were no worms. Some people claim they've never had a worm problem, and I'm not going to contradict them. Here in Florida, that's simply not the case.

If you've had a fecal done, and there are no worms, don't worm. It's that simple. If you do have worms, it's good to take advice from those that have to deal with them more routinely. When first having to deal with them, it's a bit intimidating. Natural, easy methods sound more appealing. There's just one problem. They're ineffective. Research, and those that actually have to deal with the problem more routinely will confirm that.

As to toxicity of wormers. Wormers have to be given at least twice. Once for the existing worms, the second time is for those that hatch. The wormer dosage does not stay in the system, at a level that will kill hatching, and baby worms. What this means is that all the hoopla about long term egg withdrawal is nonsense. If there is not enough residue to have any effect on hatching worms in 7 days from the initial dose, there is not enough residue in the eggs after a few days, to be harmful to people. Remember, they mostly use the same active ingredients for people.

Living here, where worms are commonplace, I used to have fecals done before I'd worm. Through the years, with observation, and fecals confirming my suspicions, I've learned the signs that indicate my flock needs worming. I've further noted that there tend to be 2 times of year when it happens. That's not saying there are not exceptions. This does not mean your experience will be exactly the same. I do suggest though, that if your flock does need worming, Dawg's information is top drawer.

 

[dawg53]

The question I'm running into personally when trying to decide is this:

I live in Western WA. We have a relatively cool climate and not humid, just very rainy (which I guess technically counts as humidity because there is water in the air, but it's rain, not vapor hanging around). I wouldn't call it tropical by any means, just really wet. My soil is rocky.

Do I fall under the "wet soil" = more worms, or the "cool soil" = less worms category? @dawg53

It's the warmth of soil and wetness that get the nasties going. Bacteria and protozoa also multiply in warm wet soil. If anything, collect a few fecal samples and have them tested once every 4 months. The vet will let you know if there's worm oocysts on the slide as well as alot of cocci. That's what I'd do if I lived where you're at.

 

[coach723]

@getaclue

 

[Kris5902]

I think every situation is different... I don’t plan on regularly de worming my flock prophylactically, but if I see a problem arising wouldn’t hesitate to treat them. Our worm outbreaks are fairly seasonal, spring mostly, where I live... but can see how in a different environment (like Florida especially) a regular worming cycle may be needed to maintain flock health. As @dawg53 points out parasites are an awful way to die, one of my friends spent almost a full month in the hospital last Christmas thanks to a parasite he picked up on vacation... and they are everywhere!

 

[Sue Gremlin]

@Sue Gremlin (professional parasitologist): "I am not a big fan of throwing dewormer at animals as a matter of course. [...] They will often become reinfected quickly since they eat everything. If they are healthy and happy, there's no need, IMO, to evacuate the worms most of the time. In fact, I wonder sometimes if this causes more harm than good.

I feel the need to emphasize that this is most definitely not a one size fits all definition. First, there are differences of opinion about worms fundamentally, that is, are any worms acceptable? I think so, and like I said, I will only recommend treatment if I find particular parasites with a particular set of circumstances. Every situation is different and there are many things to consider when managing your flock with regard to parasites, such as age, numbers, housing, feed, production goals, losses, sickness, etc.

 

[Sue Gremlin]

I should add that I am not a bird parasitologist, so please don't take my words as gospel. I am still very much a student in that regard.