Discussion of Legbar Standard of Perfection for -Alternative- Legbars - SOP discussion

[ChicKat]

Talk about way off on the color here

This is my 13 week old girl


Compared to my year old girl

same girl at about 4 months maybe a bit older she has really lightened up.

Thanks caychris!
Sure is a good example of how they can change -- so just to verify that photo is the same pullet as photo 3.... She kept her yellow legs...

My egg layers have really light light legs now....

 

[TheChickenQueen]

I have a question for all you legbar people. (kind of off topic)


Awhile ago I had gotten some eggs from a fellow BYCer and she had thrown in some legbar eggs and told me she didn't know about the fertility on them. Out of 3 eggs, 2 were clear, and 1 hatched a little over a week ago.
A little cockerel, but looking at pictures of regular legbars he is much lighter and the feathers starting to come in on his wings are white.
This does not seem normal, does anyone have any ones that were like this? I can't take any pictures of him currently.

 

[ChicKat]

I have a question for all you legbar people. (kind of off topic)


Awhile ago I had gotten some eggs from a fellow BYCer and she had thrown in some legbar eggs and told me she didn't know about the fertility on them. Out of 3 eggs, 2 were clear, and 1 hatched a little over a week ago.
A little cockerel, but looking at pictures of regular legbars he is much lighter and the feathers starting to come in on his wings are white.
This does not seem normal, does anyone have any ones that were like this? I can't take any pictures of him currently.

Hi TheChickenQueen,

One thing we do know for certain is that CLs go through a lot of changes as they grow from chick to adult! You will want nice 'crisp' barring on your male for a couple of reasons, one of the most important reasons is that the barring is part of the autosexing of the breed, and most folks consider the autosexing the most important characteristic. In some strains it has become a bit blurred or even lost in some UK lines so some of the websites there tell us. --

Best approach IMO is to grow him out -- a week old is very very young. Once you can get a picture of him be sure to post in one of the Legbar threads here on BYC or post in this one and others will be able to weigh in to tell you if they had a cockerel with similar development - and perhaps even show you what the exact cockerel grew up to be! Welcome to Cream Legbars --

 

[caychris]

Thanks caychris!
Sure is a good example of how they can change -- so just to verify that photo is the same pullet as photo 3.... She kept her yellow legs...

My egg layers have really light light legs now....

Yeah photos 2 and 3 are the same bird.

 

[1muttsfan]

ChickenQueen, by very light do you mean yellow? There are some recessive white genes floating around in CL's.

 

[TheChickenQueen]

ChickenQueen, by very light do you mean yellow? There are some recessive white genes floating around in CL's.

Yes, the head area is darker more of golden, then the rest of it is yellow.

 

[chicken pickin]

Yes, the head area is darker more of golden, then the rest of it is yellow.

He could be a recessive white but my guess is he is likely just a really light colored male and since he is only just over 1week old the tips of his feathers will likely be white. My guess is in the next week or 2 you will see the gray on the wings also.

When you are able to get a pic of him you should try to post his pic.

 

[caychris]

This brings up a discussion point to come back to the original point of the thread.

What if you breed these Recessive White birds? Wouldnt they be, or lead to, an alternative Legbar. Similar to how the delware is the result of breeding the sports.

Looking at some of the Rees line of CLB it seems that the complete absence of chestnut leads to some interesting variation in the plumage that seems very distinct.

I'm also thinking that birds specifically bred to enhance the chestnut color could end up with a different kind of bird too.

My question in this is with such a complex color pallet to work with where do you think the line gets drawn between selectively breeding for a color variation (which seems near impossible to "fix") and just the "not correct CLB"


At this point in looking at all the variation, not to mention debate on what is creme, I think there are alternative legbars hiding under the covers and the only way to really get at them is to begin to separate the "Cream" from the Gold and Silver. I think "Cream" and chestnut permissible issues will continue long after the SOP is adopted. However even if the CLB standard is set it doesnt mean that another Legbar could not be developed from "Cream"

 

[KendyF]

Hello Everyone, I hope the week is going well. Congratulations on a productive Quarterly Meeting. Thank you so much for posting it! That was really appreciated.

I know ChicKat, was trying to wrap up this thread, but I thought I would post one last set of thoughts, after listening to the meeting, and some other conversations which are going on.

Regarding the issue of "Cream". It doesn't seem to be a defined color or may have a spectrum of shades. Unlike Silver If you say silver whether it is a Silver Laced Wyandotte, or a Silver Spangled Hamburg, you know what color you are looking for. Somewhere in this thread it said the SOP should paint a picture. Due to the continued discussion here, I am thinking Cream isn't clear. With that in mind, I was wondering if further definition of cream should be put into the SOP? (not genetics, but what it looks like) Pale butter or off white were discussed at one point. With that in mind I went to the SOP of the Marans breed. Newly accepted into the APA, although only Black Copper is currently accepted they knew they were going to work on other colors so they considered that in the SOP, I also noticed in the Marans SOP there are several places color is defined.

From the Color Section of the Black Copper Marans SOP:
DISQUALIFICATION: Brown wing bay. (See General Disqualifications and Cutting for Defects.)
COMB, FACE, WATTLES AND EAR-LOBES: Bright red.
BEAK: Horn, black shading permitted.
EYES: Reddish bay.
HEAD: Lustrous deep copper, neither yellow nor mahogany.

NECK:
Hackle -- Lustrous deep copper, neither yellow nor mahogany. Some feathers, especially in the lower hackle, may include a narrow dark stripe through the middle of each feather, terminating in a point near its lower extremity.

I know there are still edits being made to the SOP, and I have never worked on an SOP, but in my opinion, if the color was more clearly defined. Such as - Pale Cream, neither yellow or gold. It it might help end the debate. Just a thought.

I appreciate the attitudes expressed in the meeting such as not pushing out the people who have more colored birds and consideration for the gene pool. (I think that was mentioned) Also, understood the discussion of continued breeding of the more crele birds and an alternative SOP, might "spreading the team too thin". I also agreed with Michael's evaluation of there not being enough difference in the hens to truly look like a noteable "different color".

As I have stated in this thread, I like my crele legbars, and their "sunny" colors. It is important to me to support the breed and the club. I will not attempt to breed to color Gray and White (just saying that is how it looks to me) I am going to work on my brown based females (vs gray) with some yellows and oranges in the males. Maybe as other flocks move toward the whiter cream, the differences will be more apparent. I have not yet seen many hens which I would call gray. I will do it in cooperation with the CLC club and not as any kind of split or argumentative position. I recently upgraded to the full membership, in order to stay in touch with what is happening with breed and as we have all stated type is more important than color. Who knows what will happen in the future regarding color. There is a "market" and interest in the Golder/Browner/Crele colors, as the price of chicks and the number of people raising and selling the birds proves. I think it is due to the unusual and beautiful colors of the birds. Also the difficulty people are having breeding the color out.. The first step to any hope of a colorful version is the "Cream" version. I want to support the group and the breed, I know "warm bodies" are always needed. Let me know how I can help. I do think the 2014 Champion, which has been posted here many times is a beautiful bird.

Thank you all for putting up with my questions and continual color questions and for taking the time to discuss the issue.

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks KendyF -

Good insights -- I do know diddley-squat about Marans. Perhaps that is one avenue, putting more definitions in the SOP....perhaps it is 'good' as it stands.

I do mean to summarize - there are just too many in the air right now for that one to be able to come in for a landing so it is in a holding pattern! .