Do you think dogs feel pride or sense of accomplishment in a task?

[Mak]

And, Pat- yes, we are lucky to have this class for him. I think it is really making a difference. I knew it would help the physical part, but the mental end of it was a big bonus!

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Exactly!! I think that is part of why some people get *so* in a swivet about people "anthropomorphizing" animals... it is not necessarily that there are so many people who think animals are people in little furry suits, so much as it is just that the only language we have for describing mental experience is aimed at describing *human* mental experience.

I certainly don't think dogs feel the same exact thing I feel, when I feel pride or sense of accomplishment in a task; nor do I think they feel it in the same way (a lot of my mental experience is verbal, for instance, whereas that is obviously not going to be true for dogs)

But that does not mean that the same general type thing can't be going on in both species. IMO.


Pat

 

[welsummerchicks]

It's isn't really equal. When I say what I think, you say no one really knows and what I'm saying is just opinion, but when you say what you think, that's not opinion - that's right, and so is everyone who agrees.

However, the person who SEES the dogs not recalling to where they are, at least THAT person might be more willing to go through all the steps of training the recall, or not blame his dog when he blows a call!

And yes, actually, I think some people understand a lot better than others, how dogs think. In 'How to Raise and Train a Puppy' the monks of New Skete monastery talk about how assumptions and opinions about how dogs react and why, work their way into training and definitely create poor quality training that smply doesn't work.

Most of the good professional trainers I know, they do in fact understand very well how a dog thinks, if they've spent a good many years of their life working with many many dogs and owners, they at least have an opportunity to understand, if they fail to, that's their fault. They can point out very accurately to a person what they're doing wrong and why their dog isn't doing what they expect.

Even more, they can tell the person exactly what to CHANGE to produce a more reliable, predictable reaction and behavior in their dog! And yes, to be quite honest, I believe that indicates a very, very useful and clear understanding of how the dog thinks!

We were in a class once and a junior trainer was asked, 'IS THIS DOG SOUND SENSITIVE' after watching the dog react in a specific situation.

She shouted, 'NO!' - the senior trainer said, 'you're wrong', and so did everyone else in the class...lol...poor junior trainer, but despite a lot of instruction and a LOT of practice with different dogs, she just somehow had a very, very hard time understanding dogs. She hadn't grown up around dogs - I think a good many people benefit from doing that.

The class had to discuss what 'sound sensitive' meant and get the junior trainer understanding what the words meant, but the junior trainer was, in fact, wrong about that dog, she thought that 'sound sensitive' meant the dog would run away with its tail between its legs, that's not what it means.

So some of this is vocabulary. Using human sounding words like 'appreciate' and 'satisfy' and 'sense of satisfaction' - is indeed, with dogs, anthropomorphosizing. They can't and don't think like people. Just by neuroanatomy, by brain function - can't happen. But do they have emotions? I definitely think so. Same as ours? No. In the same situation do they react the same way? No. But rather than being an excuse for treating them roughly or inhumanely, this situation gives us even more responsibility to be good owners.

Some people tend to get a very negative agenda about dogs - 'You have to force 'em' or 'A good beating never made a bad dog'. And no matter how much they are exposed to opportunities to form a more useful point of view, they persist in that. Can't help those ones!

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Indubitably... why should you even think I'd think otherwise? Not sure why you seem so determined to be disagreed-with about everything, even when there is no disagreement or it's a perfectly legitimate 'everyone gets to have their own opinion LOL

I'm just saying, "people make training mistakes because they don't understand how dogs think" does not strike me as an especially useful statement because people with rather-different understandings of "how dogs [supposedly] think" sometimes get equally good training results. And in the end nobody knows for sure how dogs really DO think so who can tell who's right and who's wrong.

<shrug> to me the test of whether a training method is sound is simply "does it give the desired results while maintaining a willing upbeat dog". To whatever extent it fails on either of those counts, it's not such a great method (at least as applied by that particular person).... to the extent it DOES provide desired results with a happy-seeming dog, then I do not see that it matters one whit how the practitioner explains it in terms of how they believe dogs think.

Yet, you can get two people with significantly different theories of what goes on "upstairs" both getting reasonable results even though they both insist that they, unlike the other guy, really *understand* how the dog's mind works.

I don't think that theories of the dog mind are really "where the rubber meets the road".

I just posted this thread cuz I was curious what others would say, NOT as an affront to your personal beliefs

BTW, when you wrote earlier

If the dog doesn't look like he's enjoying himself, I think I am doing something that prevents the dog from being sure in his work. And that's how I handle my dogs. If they don't look 'happy', they don't look 'eager', they aren't like, 'oh boy, she's getting the leash!' I assume there's something wrong with how I'm training. I try to figure out what that is. I want to see a really positive look in the dog.

I certainly hope you are not implying that's not the case for ME too

Nonetheless a dog's personality or demeanor does not change instantly on human whim, no more than you can jolly a depressed person into a totally different outlook on the world overnight. I think I am doing pretty darn good with Russell and he is a WAY WAY more happy and confident (not to mention better-behaved

) dog than when I got him as a turning-6-month-old last summer. I am not generally quick to take offense, but. I would hope that your comment was merely an unrelated example of, well, something or other.

Pat​

 

[verity]

If the dog doesn't look like he's enjoying himself, I think I am doing something that prevents the dog from being sure in his work. And that's how I handle my dogs. If they don't look 'happy', they don't look 'eager', they aren't like, 'oh boy, she's getting the leash!' I assume there's something wrong with how I'm training. I try to figure out what that is. I want to see a really positive look in the dog.

This is such an interesting thread -- doesn't look 'happy' describe an emotion the dog is feeling???? -- and so why does anyone think that dogs aren't capable of 'feeling' other emotions????​

 

[TeamChaos]

I'm going to go for the fluffy and relate a story about "folded ears".

I've got a 3 year old rescued dog- a big boy named Jack... he came with the breed description of "border collie/ great dane" ha ha ha! He's a big dude, but mostly likely a shepard/collie of some sort. He's mostly white with blue eyes, just the sort of physical description Temple Grandin says is BAD NEWS for an animal, behavior-wise.

Anyway, when he was first with us (1 1/2 years old), his face looked pinched and he carried his ears back and folded. He was a nervous guy. Even when his tail was wagging and he seemed to be feeling pretty secure, his ears stayed rumpled on his head. They were pretty big, I figured they just had a natural flop. He and I worked a lot together on commands and good manners, as he's well over 100 lbs and I didn't want to put him in a situation where I'd have to rely on brute force to control my dog. Sometimes when he got a good scratch or a reward game of squeaky ball, his ears would flick up and open for a few seconds but they didn't stay that way.
Anyway, as he settled in our pack and was relied on more and more to help with farm work, we saw his ears in positions other than rumpled against his head. One nite when we were all sitting together, my husband pointed out "hey look, the ear fairy came!" . Sure enough, Jack's ears had been unfurled and stayed that way. To us silly folks, it seemed like Jack was letting his real self shine and I think he needed work and training to feel like even HE was capable of being a Good Boy!

jack doesn't like the flash by Maxxchaos, on Flickr

 

[Flyingbavarian]

I don't necessarily think a dog feels pride or a sense of an accomplishment in the task itself. I think when a dog looks proud or happy after something it does its because he wants to please his owner, pack leader, alpha dog or whatever you want to call it. When the dog completes whatever it is you want it to do his pride or satisfaction comes from knowing that he or she did what you asked and made you happy, so the dog is happy. Just my take on it maybe it is the same as feeling pride over doing something but i don't think it comes down to individual sense of acomplishment its a pack thing.

 

[farmchick897]

I bring home large bones from the slaughterhouse for my 8 dogs and I've seen how some are very clever how they get the bone from another dog. First you can never just approach and steal, this will lead to a fight. So I watch how some will come up with a plan. My
Favorite is the "sound an alarm", start barking and running towards the barn and when they leave the bone the dog who sounded the alarm doubles back to steal bone. Then they proudly prance around full of accomplishment.

no praise, no human involvement at all.

 

[chickenzoo]

I've seen my little roos fake finding some food to get a girl over to him.... must take some type of thinking.... hehe And he seems pretty proud of himself too

 

[welsummerchicks]

I certainly hope you are not implying that's not the case for ME too

I rarely imply anything, I'm not bright enough to imply things. If I think something, I just out and say it. You can take what I said up there as what I feel - and not some underhanded criticism or backhanded accusation of how you train your dog. I said what I mean - I feel if my dog - MY DOG - is skulking away when I get the leash, I need to change my training. That doesn't mean my dog has ever slunk away when I get the leash - it means I always try to structure the training so the dog WON'T be skulking away when I get the leash. That is one of the most important things I think a trainer can do.

I am more defending myself than anything as on dog threads, you seem to discard anything I say about dogs as wrong and stupid. -

On the idea of simply disagreeing for the fun of it. I'm not disagreeing for the fun of it - I am saying what I feel after many decades of training ahd showing and working dogs and working with trainers I really respect, and learning from them. And I more feel like I am defending myself upon being attacked, than disagreeing. I certainly don't find it fun - at all.