Docking Tails (dogs- want your oppinon).

[walkswithdog]

The bashing was poodle bashing and yapping dog bashing and it's been corrected.

I know people with Papillons as service dogs.

The only problem with not docking/cropping purebred puppies that are traditionally purebred is that in a rehoming situation there is a significant chance that they would be overlooked in favor of dogs that are docked/cropped.

Breeders don't like to think, especially pet breeders, about their precious puppies ending up in rehoming situations. In truth and in general, 1 in five puppies bred by pet breeders will stay in it's original home. Show and working breeders have better odds in general, partly from being super picky about placement and by having contracts.

One in five in a permanent home, means most dogs in a pet bred litter will be rehomed at some point. If the dog is purebred but does not meet the public's perception of what it should look like it has less chance of being adopted. If it lucks it's way into a sanctuary or rescue group it may survive that. If it's in a shelter, the rescues are full and no sanctuary available, it stands a higher chance of dying.

If so many pet bred dogs weren't bred every year, the odds would be better, but none of us can stop that. There aren't enough homes, even well intentioned adopters often want a purebred look.

The truth is even well bred show and working dogs end up in shelters and rescues, sometimes pet bred litters average much higher in successes. I'm talking averages, normal. And the truth is most of the public pass on, pass over and dump dogs with little thought to their responsibility for having taken in the puppy and rarely is a pet breeder ever aware of the outcome.

If you don't dock, I'd suggest you microchip to yourself and keep them registered, that way if they are dumped you will be contacted. We started doing that with all our placed rescues. It saved a couple of dogs.

I'd also suggest a refundable deposit for spay/neuter proof and a short contract. If you hold 50 or 75 dollars against proof of alteration you go a huge step toward ensuring the successful placement of pups. Someone who cannot or will not leave that amount with you should not be getting your precious pups.

We actually went to altering even small pups before placement because sometimes deposits are no guarantee. A dog has a vastly screaming huge better chance of staying in the same home if it's been altered. There are fewer secondary sex characteristic problems - marking, running stray and the like.

The majority of dogs stray are intact dogs at wander. The majority of turn ins are intact dogs that are advanced juvenilles or young adults developing secondary characteristic behaviors. Or young juvenilles and adult females and their litters, or as pregnant unwanted.

Consider their futures, microchip and get a deposit and good luck deciding on dock or not.

 

[ninjapoodles]

Quote:
I think another thing that helps with the above is keeping track of your pups. Since most show/performance breeders are heavily invested in the welfare of their chosen breed, it's in our best interest to track every puppy we ever produce, for its entire life. (Plus it's a matter of just plain ethics, IMO.) We're responsible for these dogs, and will always and forever take one back at any time rather than see it enter "the system." We're also usually heavily involved in breed rescue, and would not hope for, but would welcome a call from a shelter worker or rescue volunteer saying, "Hey, I think we have one of yours here, can you help us out?" Hopefully, if you've done your work on the front end, both in screening potential homes and in maintaining a relationship with the owners, they will come to you first, and it'll never come to that.

That said, unexpected things happen in life. People become ill, incapacitated, and even die unexpectedly, and family members or whoever steps in to take care of things may not know about you or how to contact you. This is where measures like tattoos and microchips can come in handy, like you mentioned. Sometimes you do everything right, and things still go wrong. It's life. I have only had to "reclaim" one dog, and the situation was no one's fault--the father had to get a new job that took him away from the home for months at a time, and another baby was born during this time, following which the mother suffered crippling postpartum depression. I was very thankful that they contacted me, instead of dumping the dog at a shelter, even though I had to make arrangements to move that dog from one country to another, with stops along the way with various doggie friends all over the place.

As an owner, you can help by keeping the breeder's information in a central location with your other important documents, perhaps with instructions--"In case of emergency, please contact breeder," etc.

We also care about the lifelong health of each pup, not just for sentimental, emotional, and ethical reasons, but also because it informs our future breeding decisions. If I sell a puppy and then don't keep track of it, and two or three or five years down the road, that dog bloats or develops hip dysplasia or epilepsy, I'll never know it, and could continue breeding from that family and producing more health problems. It just makes sense all the way around to be a good steward of the animals you produce, and that stewardship doesn't end when the pup leaves your home.

I don't have a good solution for spay/neuter of pet puppies. I haven't placed many pet puppies, but I don't believe in early S/N (9 months is about the earliest I'd do it), and at the same time am loathe to give up physical control of the dog until I know the surgery's been completed. It's a bit easier to enforce a contract on a show dog, if only because of co-ownership.

 

[monarc23]

Quote:
A lot of what you said makes perfect sense for most pet breeders though I assure you I'm not like most pet breeders. *numbered so i remember everything i wanted to say lol*

1. my intentions are different- im not looking to make a profit, I am very realistic when I say that I've put and will put more into these two dogs than I'll ever get out of them...their feed and vet visits alone assure that.

2. I was actually planing on doing that exact idea $50 refunded at vet proof of altering! Im' glad you reccomend it because i had never heard of it until I thought of it myself ha ha!!!! I wasn't sure how it'd go over though but since you said this I am almost positive i'll do it.

3. as for rehoming, in my contract I do not will not allow pups to be rehomed into ANY situation without me being contacted first. I reserve the right to rehome to a home i see fit. If the owner no longer wants the pup it *according to my future contract* becomes MY property...it would be a breach of contract if they rehomed it without contacting me first and letting ME meet and see the living conditions of the potenial new owners...if i dont like it the pup comes back to me.

4. Micro chipping is a great idea--never done it and i kind of dont like the idea of foregine things in the body HOWEVER...that is a case where it could mean the difference of life or death (dog found, pound full, run the scanner over it come sback to me....i can retrieve it without it being put down for no room in the shelter)!

I love this idea..thanks for it!

5. I understand that some may not apeal to a cocker with a tail, however that's their loss, my concern isn't to pump out puppies and move em out quick. If it takes time to find the ideal home for a pup (which i plan to advertise the litter soon after the dogs are bred so this should minimize this but again im realistic) then that's just more time I personally get to spend wiht that puppy insuring it's potty trained (which i believe is the #1 reason dogs are rehomed) and has down it's basic OB.

6. I talk to MANY MANY show breeders with GC cockers...they even agree that 99 % of their litters go to pet homes. They usually only keep 1-2 ideal pups per litter that are even ideal for possible showing in the future...and I also disagree about show breeders having a better time with people holding on to their puppies...because most breeders keep their pups to look them over for show purposes until they are atleast 12 weeks old....at 12 weeks most pups are set in their ways in reguards to socilization if that breeder was too busy showing and working with their other dogs, not giving the ones growing the time and socilization they need, they could end up homing them only for the new owners to not realize what they were getting into with an older pup. Sure not every show breeder is like that but a lot are, they are dedicated to showing, and can't always be there in a normal home atmosphere for each individual pup. Small hobby show people would have a more ideal time homing well rounded socilized pups I feel. Even though I don't show, i put myself in this catigory since im home almost 24/7, I am dedicated to not only basic obediance but also hunting with my dogs. However young pups really shouldnt start hard core OB at a very young age (under 8 weeks well or older depending...i dont think it's wrong to get pups to sit, and walk ona leash well before they go to their new homes, as well as potty training).

7. Again not every show bred pup is ideal for show...so they end up in the same situation as "pet breeders" pups do. So I honestly don't see where theres a difference between show breeders and responcible pet breeders.

8.My personal goal is to pick a pup in the litter i feel will suceed it's parents in the hunting aspect, and see about hunting trials. I may also do hunting trials with my male here now...however he's got a lot more training to do....my female i think she's better equiped for agility, so i think she's going to go that angle. However she gets better and better with retrieval so I'm trying both angles with her.

9. Pups will perferably have someone waiting for them even before they are born, I will have already met the potential owners, seen their living situation, discussed the ins and outs of the breeds (ther good and bad characteristics), possible health problems, early socilization, see what vets they use (call the vets they use to get sort of a background check on how often they've used their vet for other or previous pets), see waht pets they DO have and discuss how that will be with them, have them sign my very strict contract (that doesnt effect them unless they mistreat the dog *dont get it groomed, throw it outside etc*, as long as they alter the dog *which if they do i will do the $50 back guarrentee- which if they go to my suggested vet, will cover the cost of neuter/spay indeffiantly- i have a wonderfully cheap but efficiant vet--I have 3 vets i use for specific purpsoses* and most importantly as long as they keep the pup/dog for it's life the contract will not need to go into effect with me and them---sorry if that ramble didnt make much sense.

Ending statement

I've grown up around MANY breeders that dont give a darn. To them it's $$$, and or seeing nature take it's course. I don't think like that and never have. To me it's about passion for what I love, and doing things correctly, and with meaning-well intentions. These pups from day one of their lives will be worked with the stimulation techniques that are known to produce "super puppies" <---research it if you are curious just google it (was developed by the military for working dogs), fed what i feel is one of the best kibble feeds out there Solid Gold- Hunchen Flocken (however I love innova as well) *as well as supplimentation of raw meats/veggies*- vet checked- wellness checked, wormed, vaccinated, started on OUT DOOR Potty training (i am against paper training MY personal pups- as i believe it can cause problems and confusion). Any pups that may have a murmur or something to that extent will be made known to the potential new owner, and the price of the puppy will be a little bit less--however I will only let it go to a special home where the potential owner will be willing to show me proof of atleast annual vet check ups to make sure the pup is doing well with it.

I have never once been made to sign a contract for an animal that promised that the pup would be cared for, vet checked and kept and if not kept returned back to the owner...however, I would in a heartbeat on any of the animals i've aquired, and if someone else isnt willing to do that to buy one of my puppies, well then honestly it means to me that they're not true in their intentions or have doubts about what they may feel about the pup in later months...and in that case they dont diserve a pup then do they?

im rambling...but theres more to it than this, but basically...im not your average pet breeder...the term pet breeder has been kind of made to form an insult over the years because of breeders who "dont give a darn" well i do...

 

[monarc23]

I also wanted to say that i do not persoanlly belive there is an overload of pups/dogs in shelters. Some sheltesr are so empty they are importing dogs from mexico to name a big one.

 

[monarc23]

OH and another thing...

about grooming...I plan to offer free grooming of all my future dogs pups.....as grooming is expensive and I love to groom myself... a good bath, clip, maybe clean the ears, clip the nails.


I want a personal relationship with my future "customers' i want them to feel like they can call me in the middle of the night with a problem with their puppy or any concern in training they may have. When you have a relationship like that with owners, it comes back two fold for teh pup and I truely believe that. I want to trust them adn i want them to trust me. I would even love baby sitting them if the ownesr have to go somewhere (for a smal fee for care) as well as possible OB training if they need it done (again fora small fee for time).

By the way my cheap vet I use (cheap as in prices ha ha) people drive the whole way from MD just to go to them that's how great and reasonable they are...so I think I am seriosuly going to put in my contract that they HAVE to get their dogs altered via that vet clinic specificially...if they can come to my house and get the pups they can sruely go to my one vet, it's cheaper and will insure their money back. Ha this feels great, this has been a mini brain storm for me.

 

[monarc23]

We also care about the lifelong health of each pup, not just for sentimental, emotional, and ethical reasons, but also because it informs our future breeding decisions. If I sell a puppy and then don't keep track of it, and two or three or five years down the road, that dog bloats or develops hip dysplasia or epilepsy, I'll never know it, and could continue breeding from that family and producing more health problems. It just makes sense all the way around to be a good steward of the animals you produce, and that stewardship doesn't end when the pup leaves your home.

I don't have a good solution for spay/neuter of pet puppies. I haven't placed many pet puppies, but I don't believe in early S/N (9 months is about the earliest I'd do it), and at the same time am loathe to give up physical control of the dog until I know the surgery's been completed. It's a bit easier to enforce a contract on a show dog, if only because of co-ownership.

I agree with teh first paragraph completely! As for the second, my personal thoughts are if the dog is small to medium sized, altering at 6 months is reasonable, but larger breeds like standard poodles and the like i agree should be altered no earlier than 9 months htough i think in their case a year would suffice. My oppinon, not stating it as fact lol!​

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
Well, it may be different in the dog world, I do not know.

But.

I can tell you that in the horse world, LOTS of people put 'right of first refusal' type clauses in the sales contract. It is pretty common.

Yet hardly ANY buyers actually comply with that clause.

The main reason is probably embarrassment and wanting to avoid an awkward or potentially humiliating situation. But whatever the reasons, in reality LOTS AND LOTS of horses (I would guess the vast majority) that are sold with buyback/reclaim type clauses end up getting passed on to other owners or sent to auction or given away to 'rescues' etcetera etcetera without the original owner ever hearing Word One about it.

There is really not much you can do to enforce it, either. First, you would have to *discover* that the horse or dog was given away or sold; and then you would have to spend a bunch of money and time and stomach acid taking the person to small claims court without any particularly likelihood of a good outcome, besides which what you *really* wanted was the dog back and you aren't GOING to get THAT because the person no longer even has the dog.

So, I'm just saying. Realistically, unless things work radically different in the dog world, do not place any meaningful faith in such contract clauses.

BTW, in some areas there *is* a surplus of good, adoptable dogs in shelters -- just not in all areas. (Urban areas, in particular, tend to have mostly 'difficult' dogs; rural areas are more apt to be euthanizing perfectly good adoptable family type animals for lack of a home).

Pat

 

[ticks]

My GSP's tail is docked. They can barely feel it, and then it's over.

 

[Buster]

My Australian Cattle Dog's tail is docked. They are not accepted to show that way but I wouldn't want it any other way in a working dog. I have worked dogs with tails in corrals and the tail ends up flinging manure all over everyone. My preference is to have stock dogs' tails docked. I dock all the pups out of my dog because 90% of the people on my list want them that way as well. The dogs are fine. They work just fine and are happy and healthy. Anyone questioning this can come watch my dog work with me.

 

[ninjapoodles]

Quote:
Well, it may be different in the dog world, I do not know.

But.

I can tell you that in the horse world, LOTS of people put 'right of first refusal' type clauses in the sales contract. It is pretty common.

Yet hardly ANY buyers actually comply with that clause.

The main reason is probably embarrassment and wanting to avoid an awkward or potentially humiliating situation. But whatever the reasons, in reality LOTS AND LOTS of horses (I would guess the vast majority) that are sold with buyback/reclaim type clauses end up getting passed on to other owners or sent to auction or given away to 'rescues' etcetera etcetera without the original owner ever hearing Word One about it.

There is really not much you can do to enforce it, either. First, you would have to *discover* that the horse or dog was given away or sold; and then you would have to spend a bunch of money and time and stomach acid taking the person to small claims court without any particularly likelihood of a good outcome, besides which what you *really* wanted was the dog back and you aren't GOING to get THAT because the person no longer even has the dog.

So, I'm just saying. Realistically, unless things work radically different in the dog world, do not place any meaningful faith in such contract clauses.

BTW, in some areas there *is* a surplus of good, adoptable dogs in shelters -- just not in all areas. (Urban areas, in particular, tend to have mostly 'difficult' dogs; rural areas are more apt to be euthanizing perfectly good adoptable family type animals for lack of a home).

Pat

Very, very true. I think that dog contracts are honored at a WAY higher rate than horse contracts (largely due to co-ownerships, perhaps), but the contract isn't really worth the paper it's written on. Which is why I have such a terrible time with letting go of pet puppies.