Docking Tails (dogs- want your oppinon).

[brandywine]

Quote:
Sure, protection breeds are docked because bad guys will grab their tails.

That's surely why you never see a German shepherd dog or Malinois with a tail! Those two breeds could certainly not dominate the world of police and security work if they were left undocked.

My SAR teammate just got an impeccably-bred Rottweiler pup. She has a tail. The breeder produces working dogs, not show dogs. To compete internationally in Schutzhund, her pups must have tails. But American show-dog people hold on to the tail amputation fetish, and pet owners follow along because, hey, they're the "experts," right? The reason couldn't possibly boil down to "But we've always done it this way!"

Anyway, the pup is a topper. Best Rott I've ever seen, outstanding temperament, beautiful structure, lovely tail.

As for brambles and hairy tails -- two words: English setter.

It's good that they dock all of those, or surely they wouldn't be winning field trials all over the world.

But of course, those new, "improved" cocker spaniels that look like the scrubbing bubbles cartoons need to be docked because the tails would catch in the brush. Not the ears or the belly fur, surely not.

But hey, what would a wilderness SAR dog handler know about brambles, anyway?

 

[Ugly Cowboy]

Well, I aint against dockin tails at all, I just like 'em better undocked. Same thing with sheep, to show 'em ya gotta dock 'em, but I like their tails to much to dock 'em, so I just dont show 'em LOL!

 

[monarc23]

Quote:
Sure, protection breeds are docked because bad guys will grab their tails.

That's surely why you never see a German shepherd dog or Malinois with a tail! Those two breeds could certainly not dominate the world of police and security work if they were left undocked.

My SAR teammate just got an impeccably-bred Rottweiler pup. She has a tail. The breeder produces working dogs, not show dogs. To compete internationally in Schutzhund, her pups must have tails. But American show-dog people hold on to the tail amputation fetish, and pet owners follow along because, hey, they're the "experts," right? The reason couldn't possibly boil down to "But we've always done it this way!"

Anyway, the pup is a topper. Best Rott I've ever seen, outstanding temperament, beautiful structure, lovely tail.

As for brambles and hairy tails -- two words: English setter.

It's good that they dock all of those, or surely they wouldn't be winning field trials all over the world.

But of course, those new, "improved" cocker spaniels that look like the scrubbing bubbles cartoons need to be docked because the tails would catch in the brush. Not the ears or the belly fur, surely not.

But hey, what would a wilderness SAR dog handler know about brambles, anyway?

LOL this was entertaining!

Scrubbing bubbles!!!! HA HA!!!! Your sarcasim is great!...I wish i was that good dang!

 

[monarc23]

Quote:
hey that works!

 

[brandywine]

Quote:
Well, I haven't examined a lot of poodle paws, but now you've got me curious. My two young ES (offspring of the de-clawed girl) have nice tight high dewks, as did my two deceased GSD SAR dogs. My young GSD's dewks are high and the toe part is tight, but the nails turn away from the leg a little bit, are medially rotated. She still hasn't injured either of them, and she's a full-speed-ahead nutcase who is constantly coming out of a thicket in shreds, bleeding from the nose or tongue and unaware of this.

As for repeat injuries, IME, once a dog (or person) injures some small appendage, it seems to invite many repeat injuries. So it's not surprising that your dog kept mashing up the same dewk.

One of my dogs kept banging up the same hock, time after time. Another would get things down the left ear all the time, never the right. My second SAR dog twice had injuries to her left carpal pad, which is a really tough thing to damage, but she somehow managed. Our eight-year-old ES tends to get pad abrasions on her rear feet only, which I totally don't get how she manages that, especially since she has such good proprioception and isn't misusing her hind end the way the GSDs will.

(I've personally broken my right little toe so many times that it is barely a toe any longer. Specialist said there is no joint there any longer, just the fused remnants of powdered bone. Left little toe has never been injured. Same thing with corneal abrasions on my left eye -- over and over, I scratch the same eye.)

 

[jacyjones]

It has recently been made illegal to dock tails in the Uk unless the dog is one of a few working breeds. There is a lot of discussion about this over here. We bought a Springer pup last year and arranged with the breeder to have him docked - got the proper paperwork etc before he was born. He has a working dock which will protect him a little from injuries when he is working. Our old grump was docked and she has never had a tail problem and worked every winter until a couple of years ago. She is 12. I disagree with docking for any non working dogs as this is purely done for the look and not to help the dog in any way.

 

[walkswithdog]

Both Dobes and Rotts were originally docked for their protection and appearance. That happens to be the way it was. It has been for decades in the breed standards. Working breeders still stick to the old standards by and large.

And no I didn't say a tailed breed couldn't protect, or avoid being grabbed. My shepherds have never had a problem with it. It was however the early justification for it in THOSE breeds.

When they developed the GSD and Malinois - different breeds, different standard, go figure.

The did originally dock lower bodied field spaniels because of tail issues. They didn't have clippers and didn't want to have to and quite frankly prefered the appearance but hey, they DEVELOPED the breeds what do they know? They only bred, developed and hunted them into existence.

I still don't think it's wrong to adhere to a breed standard, whether it changes or not. As long as it's done humanely and early. They MADE the breed, they wanted a certain appearance in some breeds I do prefer the old standard look.

I don't mind natural eared Danes, but if I bought one and the breeder wanted to do the ears, and most do, I wouldn't fuss.

It's nice you do SAR, and thank you for doing so. I wanted to and cannot, I appreciate your efforts. I still get lost for our local group from time to time.

People kept dogs much more minimally and much more harshly when breeds and breed standards were developed that doesn't make them wrong. That's the way it was.

As pet or working dog handlers we have the opportunity to choose. I'm not dictating to anyone and I certainly will NOT demean the people who developed breeds I love because they believed a certain way, or even cut certain corners. They lived in their shoes, I did not.

Traditional reasons are that, tradition. Standards were made by the people who created the breeds and they stated their reasons for doing so. Standards include appearance and function.

I didn't write the standards and I wasn't there, those are some of the reasons given.

I happen to appreciate their efforts. I see little point in mocking them for living in their times and doing what they thought best.

Without them, we wouldn't have those breeds. When people start breeding outside a standard to suit themselves, you stop having identifiable purebred dogs. Eventually you can't tell purebred from mutt, or byb junk.

Dobe rescue, Rott rescue and Dane rescue have trouble rehoming dogs with down ears, or tails when they traditionally have not. All the time. Undocked dobes and uncropped dobes are less likely to be adopted from shelters. Uncropped Danes are often not adopted over a cropped one. Rotts with tails are adopted after the docked rotts. It's easier to place dogs that fit the standard appearance.

In your own home, it's one thing to choose or not to choose to dock or crop. Good breeders often stick to the old standard because they do know the rehome statistics.

Once it falls well outside the familiar standard people looking for a purebred from a rescue or shelter often will not adopt it.

It's one reason I won't bash those that continue to do it, saw too many perfectly good purebreds go down because they weren't what people were looking for.

But what would I know, after working in shelters and rescue for decades. Or perhaps what would I know after raising four service dogs, working with CCI, training my own service dogs, grooming and training? Probably nothing. After being a professional trainer... Nah nothing.

A lot of us can play "probably nothing." And snotty I'm fairly practiced at.

 

[turnerstar31]

brandywine my point exactly on the whole hunting dog thing. There are many hunting dogs that have their tails and they do just fine. There are english setters, labs,irish wolf hounds, and beagles that I can think of off the top of my head.

I will admit though that the dogs do look good with their tails docked but in my opinion I just don;t see the reason.
My mom owns a party color cocker and he has his tail docked but I do think he would look good with his tail. He came from some of the top breeders of cocker spaniels so he had to have his tail docked. I do have to say though that the way they are breeding them for the show ring in my opinion is ruining the breed. He is cute but just way to much upkeep for a hunting dog. Our old cocker that passed away a while ago was more of the hunting line and had way better personality and was a lot easier to keep.

 

[al6517]

Quote:
What do I think?

I think they still ARE retrieving water dogs. Where did you get the idea that they aren't, or that they've had the instinct "bred out of them?" Never mind, I know where you got the idea, and it's not your fault.

Just because a breed becomes popular as a pet, and is kept (and/or shown) by many people who do not use it for its original intended purpose, does not mean that the dogs no longer have the instinct or ability to perform that task.

Poodles were actually originally canine multi-taskers, bred and developed as an "everyman's" dog...in other words, they weren't specialized retrievers for wealthy folks who hunted for sport, but rather jacks-of-all-trades for people who were putting food on the table for their families. They also helped earn money for many owners, through pursuits as varied as truffle-hunting and street-performing.

Sorry to go OT, but hey...could I help it? Now, what do you think?

You cannot honestly believe that poodles are still bred to have a purpose other than licking themselfs on the lap of an old woman.
Come on now let's be realistic, there is no way a poodle can handle more than 30 seconds in a duck blind. I do agree with you on what these dogs used to be able to do hundreds of years ago, but because of show breeders can no longer do any of that. you cannot tell me that this dog is suited to sit with a hunter in a duck blind, as apposed to it's main purpose of barking incecently at the doorbell. with all due respect stick to what you know and don't presume to think that all non poodle owners are idiots.

 

[ninjapoodles]

Quote:
What do I think?

I think they still ARE retrieving water dogs. Where did you get the idea that they aren't, or that they've had the instinct "bred out of them?" Never mind, I know where you got the idea, and it's not your fault.

Just because a breed becomes popular as a pet, and is kept (and/or shown) by many people who do not use it for its original intended purpose, does not mean that the dogs no longer have the instinct or ability to perform that task.

Poodles were actually originally canine multi-taskers, bred and developed as an "everyman's" dog...in other words, they weren't specialized retrievers for wealthy folks who hunted for sport, but rather jacks-of-all-trades for people who were putting food on the table for their families. They also helped earn money for many owners, through pursuits as varied as truffle-hunting and street-performing.

Sorry to go OT, but hey...could I help it? Now, what do you think?

You cannot honestly believe that poodles are still bred to have a purpose other than licking themselfs on the lap of an old woman.
Come on now let's be realistic, there is no way a poodle can handle more than 30 seconds in a duck blind. I do agree with you on what these dogs used to be able to do hundreds of years ago, but because of show breeders can no longer do any of that. you cannot tell me that this dog is suited to sit with a hunter in a duck blind, as apposed to it's main purpose of barking incecently at the doorbell. with all due respect stick to what you know and don't presume to think that all non poodle owners are idiots.

Sorry, Al, I myself have owned and currently own working hunting poodles. They do just great in a duck blind or just about anywhere you'd like to work with them. "Stick to what I know?" Um, that's exactly what I'm doing, "with all due respect,". And where in the world do you get the idea that I think "all non poodle owners are idiots?" That's just bizarre. Everyone has the right to own and work with whatever kind of dog they choose.

I'm seriously curious about your hostility level over this, and why you're choosing to openly mock me simply because I shared my experience with my breed of choice--lots of people, and I mean LOTS of people, hunt with poodles. Mostly standards, but also a respectable number of miniatures. There is a miniature poodle who is related to my silver line who has a water-rescue title, for rescuing PEOPLE (the WET-X)--there may be more, but I just happen to know about Jib because he's "family." He also has hunting titles. We have a water-retrieving title test at our national breed specialty show. Poodles are eligible to earn AKC hunting retriever titles. In the UKC, an older registry than the AKC, standard poodles are in the GUN DOG group.

Poodles are great dogs, and it doesn't matter to me whether or not you like them, but you obviously know nothing about them. "Show people" are devoting significant resources to preserving the origins of the breed. Just check out workingpoodle.org, or our breed national results. We even have a hunting dog division in our CONFORMATION classes, to give extra honor to those dogs who fulfill their original purpose and also meet the breed standard. Trust me, Al, there are tons of them out there. Just because you don't know something doesn't make it a lie. These are reference sire shots from when we picked out our current hunting companion--we chose her specifically for these working bloodlines (and they are also conformation champions):

And this is a shot of Owen, a half-sibling of one of our MINIATURE poodles, completing a working title at our breed national--this would have been the land portion. Owen is in a working continental in this pic because he was also competing in conformation.

There are pages and pages and pages of breeders and enthusiasts of hunting poodles out there...Google is your friend. I'm sorry that it seems to make you so angry that some people choose to hunt with a "non-mainstream" breed, but honestly, what skin is it off your nose?