Does anyone have children with Aspergers?

[zzGypsy]

a couple of other things.

frustration is a big issue, because we often can't make things work the way others do... at least until we learn how to use our talents to compensate for the native abilities others have that we don't.

in me, anger and frustration are clues that I need a tool-set review, or that I need an outside observer to help me interpret what's happening.

I'm smart, resourseful, tenacious. if I can't solve a thing, there's a component missing, either in my toolset, or my ability to percieve what's happening. now that I KNOW that's what anger and frustration indicate, I can get about determining what's really happening. with outside help if needed. when I was younger, it just made me want to BREAK things. ok, I still *feel* that urge, I just know it's not a workable solution.

anxiety is a big issue. because I may be "deaf" to what's building up in a situation, I'm sometimes caugth flat-footed and surprised by things. I feel like stuff happens with no warning.

it's like getting smacked by the train because you couldn't hear the whistle telling you to get off the track.

so when small things change, it raises my fear and anxiety... since I can't see change coming, big or small, it's all a surprise, and I can't prepare and focus and work out a plan and adjust my rules along the way. it means I may suddenly find myself in a situation I can't assess and don't have skills for. THAT'S bad, scary, bound to be frought with monsters I'm not equiped to deal with.

when unfamilliar things happen, my first reaction is fear and anxiety - because I don't know what the unfamilair things mean, and I anticipate that I may not have the tools to respond to the change.

as an adult, I've learned to tollerate the fear and anxiety, to wait and observe, to keep my mind in gear, ask someone I trust what's happening, try to apply the skills I have or adapt them for the new situation.

as a kid, sudden changes could make me bolt - leave the field physically, emotionally, mentally. refuse to deal. withdraw, either physically or into some behavior that I could focus on. I used to count. sometimes things (cars, birds, split ends on my hair) sometimes just numbers (86, 87, 88, 89... until I lost track and then I'd start over). it put my attention on something I could focus on and where things did not change (87 *always* comes after 86).

Now I've got better anxiety and fear managment tools, but those have taken me a *lifetime* to develop. this was NOT the easy part.

if your aspie son has anxiety or fear or frustration issues, I'd expect skill development in those areas would greatly speed his progress towards having a life that's really working well for him.

 

[zzGypsy]

and I think it's important to find out what other components of perception and processing may be different, missing, under- or over-developed. there can be stray perception issues that further cloud the mix, but once understood can be managed.

I have some sensory cross-over:

• loud things cause physical pain (not related to actual ear drums).
• I often can't tell the difference between hungry and thirsty.
• I respond strongly to surface textures, some soothing, some highly agitating
• complex disorganized sounds (like fast complex jazz, or the sound inside a busy casino) make my skin itch to the point that I can't stop scratching.
• on the other hand, white noise (like 100 typewriters, or waves or rain) or singing in any language I don't understand helps me organize my thinking and improve my focus.

I also don't map and recognize faces correctly, something I didn't identify as an actual functional defect until I was about 45... now that I know I don't do that the way most people do I can put my attention on paying attention to compensating. I've developed some strategies for recognizing faces and mapping them better.

I suppose it's like many things... there's an idea that everyone has the same perceptions you do... that we all do it "this way". once I learned I had a defect there, I was able to put some skills in place to help compensate. still, it seems a little sad, and frustrating, that it took 45 years to find out that my brain doesn't work in the face-recognition department, so that I'd know to do something about it.

so the point of all that is if there are *other* perception changes your aspie child has, discovering those can provide clues on what things help, what disrupts, and what skills are needed.

at any rate, things like tenacity and obsesive desire to learn are part of the constelation too... and those can be turned to good advantage. I've always been the "walking encyclopedia" amongst those I know, the place folks go when they need an odd detail of info on a wide variety of subjects.

that obsessive drive, if you can get it pointed at the needed social or emotional or processing skills, can take your kid where they need to go (especially with some outside insight and guidance).

 

[zzGypsy]

(end obsessive aspie brain dump)

so if there's something in there you'd like to know more about, ask.

or if there's some particular behavior you'd like some insight into, ask. I might not know, but if it's in my experience, I'll shed what light I can on it.

 

[EweSheep]

ZZ, you really outshine yourself on the Aspie's outputs and it puts into perspective in what they think! Sometimes I'm brain dead when I can not understand what hubby and daughter are thinking...puts me in a much tougher job! I would get so tired, physically and emotionally.

I can get along with hubby because I kept in mind of his "handicap". When it comes to things in drastic measures, that he would just get so frustrated, his temper gets the best of him and it would be an all out "I'm leaving because I am tired of this crap!" I would have to remind him it is not HIM, but his thinking because the way he acted out. He still does not believe there is a problem. If he can understand himself, he would understand his daughter in the same light. He simply does not see the "similarities" between him and his daughter's actions. Katie, my daughter, would mimic like him when she gets so angry and frustrated that she could not get her way by "I'm leaving!" Then immediately hubby would say "Fine, there's the door, Get out! And don't come back! You don't exist!" He would say the same thing to his own family which he seen so rarely, like once or twice a year. It is so hurtful to see him do this to his own family as well as extended families on both sides. Rarely he would ever say Sorry! He has a hard time reading into people how he hurts them badly, he would rather avoid them and find new ones. I KNOW he does not mean those things when he gets angry and frustrated but he did say at one point, he is so afraid of losing us.

 

[Beekissed]

My son would do these things too in his angry moments and would say really hurtful things...finally I understood he didn't mean them but it was his "go to" when he grew out of putting his foot or hand through a wall. One night we were into it and he was saying those hurtful things and I just knew this wasn't the real him~he is very sweet and good to all peoples~so I stopped and calmly said, "You just said that to hurt me, didn't you?" He looked embarrassed and admitted that he had and he almost seemed surprised to find it out himself!

After that we agreed that when he started those kinds of words and phrases that we would just stop talking until he could sort out what he really wanted to say instead of those hurtful things~that has worked beautifully..... when I remember to stop the argument.

Gypsy, this is weird, but you just described me and I don't know that I've ever had Aspie traits, but rather some mild ADD...could be that it was all mild Aspie. The highlighted areas describe me to a "T"!


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[EweSheep]

Hubby and Katie would do those things like foot stomping, punching the walls but I know it is not them. Hubby is on vacation to WV and Katie is behaving quite well with very little resistance, less mouthy but still tests me now and then.

When she makes those hurtful remarks, I told her I am sorry to hear that but you really hurt my feelings. Sometimes her responses are "I don't care" or simply laughed/looking away which I am sure she probably felt embarassed. Empathy isn't her strong suit. Two weeks ago when she had her hamster, she was flicking her finger at the hamster and I prompt admonistered her that it was cruel and not fun for the hamster. She laughed and said "So?!" I told her to put the hamster up and leave him alone. Not only that she purposefully left the compartment in his cage (Habitrail cage) unlocked, thus he got out and never popped up since last Sunday. She blamed it on me and her father for losing her hamster. Well we repeatly told her to keep it shut...it just don't "click" with her. Then she proceed to say "Well, now that he is gone, we can get another one!" I told her no, I don't think it is a good idea for the time being. She got mad. No hamster for her in time being. Poor thing, we never did find the hamster. I was hoping he will pop up behind the stove, his favorite hiding place.

 

[zzGypsy]

Beekissed: it's interesting what we discover when we start looking past our assumptions about what everyone else experiences, isn't it? the areas where you and I overlap (sensory crossover, texture response, etc.) are things that are part of the suit of autism-spectrum behaviors/issues. they've started using the 'spectrum' term because the more they learn, the more they realize autism isn't just one small group of behaviors and brain functions, it's a chinese menu of them and people can have some issues and not others, or have them in widely varrying degrees. all of these things *can* occur in the "normal" population to some degree, and it's a judgement call to decide at what point they're part of the "normal" and when they fall over into part of the "spectrum". sensory crossover is not unusual in autism spectrum, however face recognition issues seem to be fairly rarely present (from what I can tell in my general reading on the subject... haven't seen studies assessing this.) interestingly, face recognition issues are also something that can appear after certain types of brain injuries.

BTW, the tactic of calling the behavior for what it is (calmly observing "you said that just to hurt me") instead of responding to the words themselves is, in my experience, very effective. that sort of bad behavior often rises out of frustration but in general it's a behavior we don't respect (it's not logical) so when it's pointed out that we behaved that way, we dislike it, and that can be a strong motivator towards developing other skills for managing the emotion in the moment. your tactics around that are right on the mark and would work with me as well. remembering that we don't have natural emotional skills, and that we have to get to the emotional tasks using our logical skills can really change the dynamics of how we learn and develop in those tough emotional territories.

it's not that we don't have emotions, its that we don't have the typical toolset for managing them and have to learn through a different set of methods. it's as if we've got screws, but no screwdriver, so we have to learn to manage the screws with wrenches instead.

sometimes it helps to know *why* a thing works, so that information can be used as leverage on understanding how other things work, and what might be effective strategy. writing the stuff above got me thinking about *why* calling out the bad behavior by it's name was effective with me - I think it's because as a logic-based (not emotion-based) person, emotional reactions often look irrational to me. they don't make sense. at an essential level, I don't get *why* people react that way, and although I can certainly quote you all the reasons it's so, they don't make natural sense to me because it's not the way I'm basically wired. so when I'm busted for doing something that is clearly irrational, it really really bugs me. it's not rational to say something to hurt someone I care about. when it's clear that that's what I'm doing, I find it so offensive in myself that I WILL find another way of handling whatever brought me to that point.

Beekissed & EweSheep: anger and frustration and anxiety managment skills are, in my opinion, essential tools for aspies... and outside leverage may be needed to learn them. I spent years working with a therapist developing those sorts of skills and I suspect i would not have succeeded without his help.

EweSheep: I wish I had some magic for you, you're in a tough situaiton with everyone around you struggling to get themselves under control. I know you've talked about the difficulties with getting help for your crew, but I'll just put it out there again... a therapist would really, really help, especially for your daughter. to my (granted, personal experienced) eye, it seems there's quite a lot more going on with your daughter than just aspie and ADHD stuff and - as you well know by the peace while her father is on vaccation - the dynamics with her dad don't help. even if he won't work with a therapist, I'd highly encourage you and your daughter to go. seriously, I could not have done everything I've done without help. I didn't get that help until I was nearly 40, and we didn't understand it as aspergers for another 10 years, but it would have changed my world entirely if I could have gotten help with it as a kid.

 

[EweSheep]

ZZ, therapists are HARD to come by when they don't have the knowledge or experience in working with Aspies. We were lucky to find one just two weeks ago and she is due for another visit to her therapist. She really likes her but has a hard time following instructions on the paperwork both of them wrote out when she is angry. "Punch pillow, go into room, reading, talk a walk outside" are those on the list she likes to do. Very similar to hubby when he gets angry or frustrated. I do not know how long therapy will take before we get some results. I would imagine YEARS.

Unfortunately there are NO Asperger's Support for Parents in this town. Hope something will come up eventually.

I was disappointed in myself for letting Katie down as well as my hubby, trying to understand how aspies thinks and how their thoughts are being processed. I can get along with hubby in most cases, understand where he is coming from when he really does not mean things such like he would go off on his own and he just completely forgot about me for a bit. I would just say OK, you want "alone" time, sure, I will go and find something productive, rather than fighting him for his company. At first I was mad about it but when he was also DX with Asperger's, everything I "hated" about him changed the tactics in my thinking process. Anyway, for at least for an half an hour, he realized that I am not at his side, he would go looking for me or text me "Where are you?" Sometimes he would get upset and sometimes he would not but happy to see me.

Is it a good idea? Maybe but I'm still scratching the surface. All those years of counseling went out the window because "it was all wrong for the wrong DX". Love and Logic methods DO NOT work for them, it just backfired so bad that I quit using it. It just ****** both of them off royally and don't like that thinking game. Example: Katie would stomp all over the house, mad and frustrated when the satellite does not work, I would tell her "I didn't know I have ants in the house, that is why you are stomping". Katie didn't find it funny or stopped her from stomping. When she starts stomping I would let her know stomping isn't acceptable behavior and please walk nicely. I don't know of any other method to use yet.

With this new therapist, the next visit is our second time......I don't expect miracles but give Katie the tools to work with, understanding why she does things and be able to "soothe" herself.

 

[punk-a-doodle]

Deeply interesting and very open posts all around.

Quote: It's amazing just how much of a spectrum developmental/mental/emotional/behavioral disorders and syndromes have in all areas. A very good point to bring up when talking about this sort of subject. I found the facial recognition to be interesting, as issues with facial recognition occur in two different disorders present within my immediate family. In OCPD, reading facial expressions is something that can be difficult for some. I have social anxiety disorder, and facial identity (not of expressions, but of individuals) is incredibly difficult for me, though I am rapidly improving as I begin to be able to look people in the face (makes sense!). I hear that people with social anxiety also tend to be able to identify negative facial expressions much faster than positive expressions. Just interesting to me how facial recognition issues can pop up in different areas, and what we'll find out about cause or causes and effect as we learn more about the brain.

Gypsy, you keep mentioning your tool kit and set of tools, which really helps me understand what you are saying about Asperger's more, especially because I am a very visual person. I was wondering if you found it to be a helpful way to explore Aperger's yourself, or if you use it more to help others understand? Would, say, a therapist/parent having little cut out "tools" or prop tools to use with children with Asperger's be helpful at all in discussing the sort of subjects you have been talking about?


Quote: I find this really insightful and helpful in understanding this topic more. You give very good examples on how to work with this pattern of thinking instead of against it.

Ewesheep, I really hope you find a good therapist and techniques that work for you and your family. Like you said, some promoted techniques can actually set you back and make it that much harder to keep pushing to find something that works.

 

[zzGypsy]

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I found the facial recognition to be interesting, as issues with facial recognition occur in two different disorders present within my immediate family. In OCPD, reading facial expressions is something that can be difficult for some. I have social anxiety disorder, and facial identity (not of expressions, but of individuals) is incredibly difficult for me, though I am rapidly improving as I begin to be able to look people in the face (makes sense!). I hear that people with social anxiety also tend to be able to identify negative facial expressions much faster than positive expressions. Just interesting to me how facial recognition issues can pop up in different areas, and what we'll find out about cause or causes and effect as we learn more about the brain.

in my case, I don't instinctivly read the facial and body language cues very well, but I've learned to make specific observations of the physical details so I can understand them better. the other problem - identity recognition - is more interesting to me... perhaps because its the newer of the two discoveries I have about myself. I didn't understand until maybe 4 or 5 years ago that I have a problem with this - I just thought everyone had the same experience as I do. I've discovered that I don't map faces correctly - for instance, if you show me two photos of the same person, and the angles are different, or the hair style is different, or the expression is different, I usually can't tell if they're photos of the same person, or of two different people. I have to actually do a point-by-point comparison to know, (shape of the ear on pic A vs. pic B | shape of the hairline on pic A vs. pic B | shape of the chin on pic A vs. pic B...) and even then I'm often not sure. now if two photos are taken against the same background, or the same prop is used in photos of different people, I'll spot that right away, and remember it. but two photos of the same person with different haircuts *and* different expressions? it's beyond me.

I do get better with practice, as I spend more time with a person I get better at recognizing their face... but if I go to work at a new place, and there are two people who have similar facial construction, I have to reference who is who by voice, or by height, or by body build, or by way of moving. often I'll have to reference by similarity to someone who's face I've already mapped... "they guy who looks like Donald Sutherland" "the guy who looks like my ex-boss Michael". interestingly, I think what I see as "similar" is the same sort of thing they use for facial recognition software - face geometry... distances and relationships of specific landmarks.
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yes, and yes... I use it as both an internal method and a way of communicating to other folks (both aspies and non-aspies). internally I think of these as tools or skills, sometimes to a granular level... I may think "i need to use some of my raport skills here" or "time to get out the frustration management tools". but things like understanding having to drive screws with a wrench because you have no screwdriver gives, I think, a sense of what it's like to not have the "normal" wiring and to have to make do with what you have... at least I hope it communicates the experience.

my good shrink is expert at identifying what's working for a client and then working in that model with them... he discovered what worked well, and then built on that with me, using familiar and productive tactics and methods to expand into other development territory. the toolset method is something I already had before I began working with him, but had never thought about in any conceptual way.. that is, I didn't say to him "I want you to help me develop some new tools for my kit." but in fact it is how I treat the things I know how to do.

it's a useful metaphor for lots of reasons - one is the idea that you have to *use* a tool to get good at it, to master it, practice in necessary. another is that a tool can be used for different tasks, even ones that seem quite unlike the things you've already done with that tool... if you can identify similar components. it also helps to externalize the understanding of the problem - it's not some shapeless feeling I have inside, or some elusive interaction experience I have with another person - it's a problem that can be examined and understood, and tools can be used to manage, understand, alter it.

I think metaphors are hugely powerful for understanding things that aren't readily described - and if you can tap into a metaphor that evokes an experience the person already had, you can make huge leaps in understanding in a moment. very useful tactic.


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I find this really insightful and helpful in understanding this topic more. You give very good examples on how to work with this pattern of thinking instead of against it.

thank you,
Once I figured out that I wasn't normal, and that most folks weren't like me, and once I got over being angry and frustrated because of it, it left me with two options: quit, or figure out how to make it work anyway. I have in me a relentless desire to make things work, and a basic belief that if you keep at something you can solve it - basically, that it is within my power to make things come out the way I want, if I'm willing to work and persist and keep going. My good shrink says that's a major part of why I've mastered as much as I have, and why I can frequently "pass" for normal - because I simply refused to ever giving up trying to figure out how to make things work. he also taught me that some things cannot be fixed or changed and have to be accepted. between the two, I do pretty well, and have a measure of peace with what I can't fix.

it's interesting, because I've always felt that I don't fit in, as my hubby says "I'm clearly not from around here" (meaning this planet). and yet, since this is the planet I live on, I can either live in isolation as an outsider, or I can work on learning the local culture, local language, local communication rules, and on finding a way to function and fit in on this planet and with it's inhabitants...

what's that Tom Petty song... "you don't have to live like a refugee". I guess in a way, it applies. I will say that finding out that I really am NOT normal was very freeing - because I stopped trying to be, and because I stopped expecting that things would work for me the way the do for others. It freed me to embrace some of what's not normal about me, stop struggling with some things I don't do well, and decide what I value, what I want to work on and develop *my* kind of skills for, and what I want to just let be. it let me out of trying to make it work the same *way* others do, and let me keep my eyes on the goal, using whatever method works for me.