Dog Spay and Neuter: Discussion

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

Quote:
I think wandering issue is not really a problem of having testicles or ovaries, its a problem with the people that own the dogs allowing it to go on. Again, the issue with "miding" is a problem with the OWNER not the dog.

Quote:
I love this LV!! This is exactly my point. People think spay and neuter is the answer to so much unwanted dog behavior: wandering (being unconfined and off leash without supervision), aggression (poor training for the dog and ignorance many times on the part of the person who was bit (VETS!!), people having male dogs visiting their property when they have a female in season.

IMO all of the above problems with dogs are due to owner error. While the dog being intact may play a role in the complaints it is almost always NOT the core issue. I have read and reread many of the posts on here. To be honest it has convicted even more in my opinions that a dog having its testicles or ovaries isn't the problem. The real problem is people having dogs that shouldn't, having ignorant dog owners, having owners unwilling to take responsibility for their own dogs, people refusing to do any sort of commited training with their dogs, and people too busy to do so. If you can't train your dog and take responsibility for it then don't own one.

 

[Pupsnpullets]

I have an un-neutered male dog who will not leave my well fenced property even if someone neglects to close the gate. This dog is older now so I seriously doubt he's going to turn into a wanderer at this late age, but I will always be monitoring him and the other speyed female on the property. The female has wandered twice after rabbits and I had to do some intense lockdown on her until I got her reprogrammed. My point is that yes, even to most closely watched dog can pull a 'Houdini', but it is up to the person responsible to be responsible. If it had been the male dog wandering looking for a mate then I would make sure the resulting pups were properly taken care of

 

[Rare Feathers Farm]

Quote:
I think wandering issue is not really a problem of having testicles or ovaries, its a problem with the people that own the dogs allowing it to go on. Again, the issue with "miding" is a problem with the OWNER not the dog.

Quote:
I love this LV!! This is exactly my point. People think spay and neuter is the answer to so much unwanted dog behavior: wandering (being unconfined and off leash without supervision), aggression (poor training for the dog and ignorance many times on the part of the person who was bit (VETS!!), people having male dogs visiting their property when they have a female in season.

IMO all of the above problems with dogs are due to owner error. While the dog being intact may play a role in the complaints it is almost always NOT the core issue. I have read and reread many of the posts on here. To be honest it has convicted even more in my opinions that a dog having its testicles or ovaries isn't the problem. The real problem is people having dogs that shouldn't, having ignorant dog owners, having owners unwilling to take responsibility for their own dogs, people refusing to do any sort of commited training with their dogs, and people too busy to do so. If you can't train your dog and take responsibility for it then don't own one.

True...although I guess I should have specified and said that untrained, in-tact dogs are more aggressive and don't mind. People always seem shocked when they haven't trained their dogs, ask it to do something and it does not listen!? LOL That's why we worked with Brodee for so long. Not only because we wanted a dog that minds--we need one. You cannot live where we do and have a dog that doesn't mind. It is dangerous not only for the dog but people driving at 60 on the highway!

In addition where we live, unsupervised, wandering dogs are considered "marauding" and can be shot if they are getting after your livestock (chickens, included!) not to mention we don't live that far off the highway. Plus, because he's in-tact we don't want him breeding someone else's dogs--and there are a lot of unaltered dogs running at large that don't seem to belong to anyone if you ask.

Besides the training and plenty of exercise--when we're not home he's either in the kennel or in his crate in the house. If we're home, he's outside and if Cash is with him, he keeps Brodee home. Brodee is also a sight hound and we had to work a lot with him to not chase deer. Cash is neutered but doesn't wander. Even before we got him neutered he didn't really want to wander. I think part of that is his breed, too...being half Anatolian? We also worked with him from 6wks old (he'll be 5 in July) to stay home. He takes his chicken/goat/horse/house guarding pretty seriously and likes everything in order! LOL

My in-laws have an Aussie (pet-quality) that they finally just neutered at two years old. He simply got too aggressive and ended up biting my FIL and ripping his pants. He would come over into OUR yard and fight our dogs. He ripped Cash's eye lid almost OFF. He caused Brodee to get stitches twice. He wandered all over the place, chased my cats, ducks, geese and horses. They completely spoil the crap out of that dog, he has no boundaries and dominates them completely--with everything from food to sleeping in their bed and GROWLING at them when they try to discipline him! Plus, being a herding dog--he's very high energy and the most exercise he gets is going outside to poop.

At least he's neutered now which has helped a little but not enough. He's overweight and could seriously benefit from lots of exercise and some hard core training. He HATES my husband because every time the in-laws leave, we have to watch Tater--so my husband works with him. There is always a power-struggle and my husband never gives up. He's got a lot of patience! LOL For a few weeks a year (while the in-laws are in Hawaii), Tater is a happy, balanced (tired, LOL) dog. We take him on runs. We throw the Chuck-It, we take him to the lake...and he behaves wonderfully. About two days after my in=laws come back, he's right back where he was. Basically, they disregard our "advice" and it's their dog...but he's not allowed over here any more. He eventually attacked my cat, causing $200 worth of vet bills and he went after my Sebbies (got feathers but thankfully nothing else!) We used the pellet gun on his butt when he had my cat cornered next to the hay stack and that same week, he was cut. It took a little bit for the testosterone to cycle out but he did calm down a little bit. The aggression towards people is slightly less but he still needs a lot of work and consistency. They don't discipline him all of the time, only once in a while...so he gets confused at what is appropriate and what's not. I feel sorry for him because I think he'd be a nice dog if he had exercise, boundaries and someone consistent with him.

So yeah...that's what I meant by aggressive & in-tact. Now did the neutering solve the issue? NO. And YES, the REAL issue is his lack of training and boundaries. He OWNS those people and KNOWS it. LOL

 

[emvickrey]

I am a firm believer in spay and neutering. It should be done as early as possible. As my own preference, we have girl dogs. I just have better luck in training them. My first dog I would have gotten spayed before she had a litter but a brother n law was dog sitting while we where over the road and he tied her out in the middle of his yard when she came in heat and left his dachsund (male) running loose. He had 3 dog kennels he could have put her in but he didn't. Then tried to claim that nothing happened. About 62 days later my chow mix dog gave birth to 3 dachsund puppies. I soon after had her spayed. She was under a year old when she had puppies and she is now 13 years old and healthy and happy. Best dog i've ever had. She is a family member not just a dog. Anyway, all other dogs we've had spayed either before they went into their first heat or soon after with no puppies being born or getting pregnant. Well, there was one that got pregnant but it again was because a dog sitter let it happen. I am very strict when oneis in heat. The little ones wear a diaper except to go out to potty and are always attended and attached to a leash to go out to potty. They stay indoors the rest of the time.

I think it is alot better on the dog to not have to go through the heat cycle for nothing since they aren't going to have puppies there is no need for it. It eliminates any unwanted puppies. If we want a puppy or a dog we just call our friends at the Humane Society. Most of the time they find us.

Now as far as the boy dogs, we aquired a 6 month old St Bernard year before last that was completely with out any sort of training and he was in the worst health I've ever seen with my own eyes and at the hand of his previous owner. After getting him back to health and up to weight he went through puberty. This adolescent weighed 125 pounds at this point and nobody could go in his pen with out getting molested. I was the one to feed and water him every day. I would play fetch with him as long as I could before he got to "excited". I would have to leave because he was uncontrollable at that point and he was too big to wrestle off me. So, to adjust his attitude he got the snip snip. His attitude was adjusted immediately. Anybody could go in his pen safely and play with him and he was very loveable and just wanted to be petted and hugged. He would rub his body on us like a cat does but we had to brace ourselves or get knocked down.

I was able to teach him the basic commands and not to jump on people after he was fixed. Before he only had one thing on his mind and it wasn't learning how to sit on command or stay.

And on top of all that I truely believe that we have enough unwanted animals, we don't need to add to it by breeding them to make more so we can make a profit from it. It breaks my heart to know people do that. Get their "pets" to have babies and nurse them, clean up after them and be good mommies just to take them away and sell them for money that the mommy doesn't get. She does all the work and gets no rewards besides her annual shots, if that. I know breeders don't feel the same way as I do and I don't mean to offend anybody. If I do I apologize. This is just my opinion.

I have a cat that somebody felt we needed more than they did last summer. It is a very friendly cat but we aren't cat people but we are animal lovers so we feed it and pet it and give it treats just like our other animals and gave it a home. In return it kills all the fat mice we have. Well, last week "she" added to the family 4 kittens. We now know we have a girl cat. She is all fluffy so we didn't know she was pregnant until right at the last few days when she was looking pretty fat. I felt her belly and sure enough, pregnant. So she now brought 3 girls into this world to produce more. We have made arrangements for her to get fixed when they are weaned. They also already have homes to go to when they are ready.

We have a spay and neiter clinic here that does low cost surgery along with shots, and what ever else a dog or cat may need. A vet brings her surgical trailer and it's like a production line for a day. She does this 2 or 3 times a year. I've brought strays and had them fixed then found homes for them. I try my best to get people that have girl dogs and cats to get them fixed before they produce a litter. It's amazing how ignorant people like to act when they refuse a service they claim they want then end up with extra pets they can't feed.

I've seen a person get a pair of Poms from a relative just to breed to have the money to get their teeth fixed. They didn't worm them before breeding or make sure they had their shots. They lived in filthy conditions, outdoors in the heat. When the puppies where born they died one by one from worms. That person got mad at the mother dog and put her back outside and didn't go back to feed her. A few weeks later the male died from worms. She sold the female after that. I tried and tried to get her to find homes for them. Suggested she worm them, take them to the vet. I even found somebody that was willing to pay the price she wanted for them and she didn't sell because their hair had been shaved so they could stand the heat outside. She said she wanted to wait till their hair grew back out. The male died after that. We went everyday and fed them and cleaned out their water and refilled it. I even bought wormer and gave it to her to use and she never did.

It's people like that, that don't even need any animals. Too lazy to give them even basic care.

Another case is a lady that lives in Florida. She had 1 cat that she kept saying she was going to get fixed. Well, over a cople years that 1 cat turned into too many to count and where so inbred they where being born with crippled legs and whole litters would get abandoned and left to die by the mothers and where not safed by the owner. Instead left where they lay. The humane society was called several times and nothing was done. The place stunk so bad it was almost unbearable. When all those hurricanes came through in 2004 she gathered all of them she could and put them in her kitchen "for safety". After the hurricanes a year later they where still in her kitchen along with more that had been born.

All this is why I am a firm believer in having dogs and cats neutered and spayed. At least until the over population is no longer and no innocent animals are mistreated and neglected or put to their deaths because there is no more room at the shelter and they have to thin them out.

{{{stepping off the milk crate}}}}

This is just my personal opinion on the subject and not meant to offend anybody.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

I doubt you have offended anyone by your post. I continue to enjoy this thread and everyone's opinions.

 

[emvickrey]

Quote:
I think wandering issue is not really a problem of having testicles or ovaries, its a problem with the people that own the dogs allowing it to go on. Again, the issue with "miding" is a problem with the OWNER not the dog.

Quote:
I love this LV!! This is exactly my point. People think spay and neuter is the answer to so much unwanted dog behavior: wandering (being unconfined and off leash without supervision), aggression (poor training for the dog and ignorance many times on the part of the person who was bit (VETS!!), people having male dogs visiting their property when they have a female in season.

IMO all of the above problems with dogs are due to owner error. While the dog being intact may play a role in the complaints it is almost always NOT the core issue. I have read and reread many of the posts on here. To be honest it has convicted even more in my opinions that a dog having its testicles or ovaries isn't the problem. The real problem is people having dogs that shouldn't, having ignorant dog owners, having owners unwilling to take responsibility for their own dogs, people refusing to do any sort of commited training with their dogs, and people too busy to do so. If you can't train your dog and take responsibility for it then don't own one.

As far as the wanering, I don't agree with that. If a female is in heat, a male will find her. That is just animal nature. If the female is spayed she won't be in heat for the males to be hanging around. Then again if the males where neutered they would care less if a female was in heat. They have no interest, but it won't keep them in the yard. That is where training and fencing comes into the picture. Aggressivness can be part of the issue but not in all cases. Training and owner fault are to blame also. It just depends on the behavior. As I stated in my super long post on this subject. Spaying and neutering will help these issues and in some cases cure it as it did my problem, but training is also a big issue. Lost of owners just leave their animals to do what ever they please with no training at all. They may toss them some food from time to time. Maybe a pet on the head if the animal happens to be under their hand.

My older dog won't go outside without permission, nor will she come in without it either. When I call her she comes. I can make her stop im mid chase after anything. I don't put her on a chain or a leash and our yard isn't fenced. She stays in our yard. She doesn't bother the chickens other than to steal their treats. She does a good job at scaring strangers into retreat and will stop on command. She will sit, stay, go in the house, leave it alone and I can point to where I want her to go and she goes. I can get her to sit, shake and lay down without speaking a word. I can even make her jump into the tub for a bath even though she would rather be skinned alive first. And I never punished her with violence. All I ever had to say was "Bad Dog". She would rather crawl in a gopher hole than hear those two words.

Now the puppy we have right now will take more patience. But she will be trained as well as every other dog we ever had when we got them young. She will get spayed as soon as she is old enough also.

 

[Jamie_Dog_Trainer]

I agree with you

To clarify what I was saying about the wandering and having a female dog in heat. Yes a female dog housed outside in a yard or kennel is just an accident waiting to happen. Wandering male dogs will find her and they can be quite clever about getting into the yard or kennel. What I was sayiing is that the female dog's owner has a responsibility to keep her dog from being bred as much as a male dog's owner has the responsibility of keeping an intact dog confined in their own yard.

I saw someone on here complaining that thier female dog comes into heat, and lives outside in a kennel and they were upset by all the male dogs around. Well that is par for the course (shouldn't be but it is). The best thing you can do for that is make sure your kennel has a top AND a bottom on it and is locked, perferably inside a fenced yard as well. When I have had intact females I never let them outside unsupervised in a kennel or otherwise (when in heat that is), wasn't worth the chance. Its about taking responsibility for what you have.

 

[QuailHollow]

Quote:
I operated a rescue for 8 years. I quit. I would never boast about it like I deserve a medal of honor.
You're not forced to perform "rescue work". You choose to do so. If it is too much of a burden for you to bear, quit.

ETA: All of my dogs are intact.

 

[QuailHollow]

Quote:
I don't think that only "show" animals should be reproduced. Don't get me wrong, we spay and neuter. Irresponsible people are the reason for the pet over population problem. Some show dogs shouldn't be bred. Some of them look ridiculous in the show ring with their over exagerrated features. It's disgusting that those dogs win. The horse world has the same problem. People that consider themselves show breeders and judges create exaggerated features and ruin the breed. You state that your own dog is aggressive and needs supervision so he won't wander. It's your business if you decide to breed him, but many people would consider that a dog with behaviour problems. It's all a matter of opinion and perspective. Personally, when I get a dog, I'm looking for an individual that may or may not have papers. Papers are only worth anything if you show dogs. After all, the dog can't read them anyway.

Championship shows are now just that, mills for the production of Champions, Best in Show and Group winners, little more. They contribute almost nothing to the true welfare of dog breeds; they have few lasting positive values to offer breeders, only ephemeral fads and fashions. The worship and exaggeration of type is responsible for a multitude of ills.

Obedience work, begun as a way of initiating dog owners into the fascination and technique of training one's pet to be a pleasant, well-behaved companion, has become largely ritualized and sterile. The pursuit of "Club 200" (the perfect point score) has become an obsession. Intelligent and useful training on the owner's part, intelligent obedience on the dog's part, are now beside the point. What matters all too frequently now is the minutely-perfect performance of a set ritual.

Breed purpose and the cultivation of canine utility have a low status in the fancy compared to what one author called the glitz and hype of the show world. Those who concern themselves with the working ability of their dogs exist mostly in ghettos where little communication takes place with other branches of the fancy.

Incest breeding, once a convenient tool for the rapid fixation of type in newly-registered breeds, has become virtually standard practice for those who seek success in dog breeding. The net effect has been the decimation of gene pools, widespread homozygosity and the unintended fixation of unknown scores, hundreds or thousands of alleles, many of which are proving to be harmful or lethal to the animals that bear them.

Modern registries based on a rigidly-closed studbook are throttling the genetic health of all registered dog breeds. Genetic impoverishment is now a real and present threat. Many breeds now bear a genetic load of defects which has grown totally unmanageable as their respective gene pools have become more and more narrow through imprudent breeding and selection practices.

Purebred Dog Breeds into the Twenty-First Century: Achieving Genetic Health for Our Dogs [Dr. Jeffrey Bragg]

 

[Redyre Rotties]

Quote:
I don't think that only "show" animals should be reproduced. Don't get me wrong, we spay and neuter. Irresponsible people are the reason for the pet over population problem. Some show dogs shouldn't be bred. Some of them look ridiculous in the show ring with their over exagerrated features. It's disgusting that those dogs win. The horse world has the same problem. People that consider themselves show breeders and judges create exaggerated features and ruin the breed. You state that your own dog is aggressive and needs supervision so he won't wander. It's your business if you decide to breed him, but many people would consider that a dog with behaviour problems. It's all a matter of opinion and perspective. Personally, when I get a dog, I'm looking for an individual that may or may not have papers. Papers are only worth anything if you show dogs. After all, the dog can't read them anyway.

Championship shows are now just that, mills for the production of Champions, Best in Show and Group winners, little more. They contribute almost nothing to the true welfare of dog breeds; they have few lasting positive values to offer breeders, only ephemeral fads and fashions. The worship and exaggeration of type is responsible for a multitude of ills.

Obedience work, begun as a way of initiating dog owners into the fascination and technique of training one's pet to be a pleasant, well-behaved companion, has become largely ritualized and sterile. The pursuit of "Club 200" (the perfect point score) has become an obsession. Intelligent and useful training on the owner's part, intelligent obedience on the dog's part, are now beside the point. What matters all too frequently now is the minutely-perfect performance of a set ritual.

Breed purpose and the cultivation of canine utility have a low status in the fancy compared to what one author called the glitz and hype of the show world. Those who concern themselves with the working ability of their dogs exist mostly in ghettos where little communication takes place with other branches of the fancy.

Incest breeding, once a convenient tool for the rapid fixation of type in newly-registered breeds, has become virtually standard practice for those who seek success in dog breeding. The net effect has been the decimation of gene pools, widespread homozygosity and the unintended fixation of unknown scores, hundreds or thousands of alleles, many of which are proving to be harmful or lethal to the animals that bear them.

Modern registries based on a rigidly-closed studbook are throttling the genetic health of all registered dog breeds. Genetic impoverishment is now a real and present threat. Many breeds now bear a genetic load of defects which has grown totally unmanageable as their respective gene pools have become more and more narrow through imprudent breeding and selection practices.

Purebred Dog Breeds into the Twenty-First Century: Achieving Genetic Health for Our Dogs [Dr. Jeffrey Bragg]

It is so easy to tell who does not and probably never has competed with any animal or attended such events.