Dominique Thread!

[centrarchid]

Would this affect the way the comb looks?

Yes, if you do not apply selection pressure back down to the tighter and relatively smoother rose comb. I am currently breeding back towards a more typical American Dominique rosecomb with my Missouri Dominique project and the comb responds easily to my selection pressure.

 

[buffalogal]

"...but in at least one current strain of American Dominique some Barred Plymouth Rock was bred back in I am guessing to enhance barring and increase size"

Seriously? Who does this? Crossing a Dominique with a Barred Rock would in all likelihood increase size (resulting in oversized Dominique and undersized Barred Rock), but it would do nothing to enhance the barring of either breed as it would also spoil the overall type and combs for generations afterward. IOW, crossbreeding Dominique and Barred Rock would be a shortsighted way to pretend to make 'improvements', and a very fast way to ruin both breeds.

Bearsprings;Yes. But you would also be able to tell by the overall shape of the bird, the size and the barring.

 

[centrarchid]

One of the most touted strains of American Dominique are supposed to have Barred Plymouth Rock in the background, possibly introduced in the last 30 years. It surely did take some effort to restore type and comb but I think intent was to increase weight which it most certainly did and the barring is crisper than Dominiques of other strains I had along side. The crispness of this particular strain likely enabled by the addition of a locus that further slows growth. This strain has noticeably slower feathering than either Voter or Hyman strains. At shows this particular strain is also referred by some as being coarse. The coarseness you can not by looking at legs and head.

With respect to comb it just takes numbers and some time to restore after outcrossing. That is part of the fun.

 

[buffalogal]

One of the most touted strains of American Dominique are supposed to have Barred Plymouth Rock in the background, possibly introduced in the last 30 years. It surely did take some effort to restore type and comb but I think intent was to increase weight which it most certainly did and the barring is crisper than Dominiques of other strains I had along side. The crispness of this particular strain likely enabled by the addition of a locus that further slows growth. This strain has noticeably slower feathering than either Voter or Hyman strains. At shows this particular strain is also referred by some as being coarse. The coarseness you can not by looking at legs and head.

With respect to comb it just takes numbers and some time to restore after outcrossing. That is part of the fun.

Did the breeder tell you this personally, or is it something you supposed?

"The coarseness you can not by looking at legs and head."
I'm not sure what you're saying here, please explain. (I do this frequently myself, my mind is going faster than my fingers can peck out the words) I've actually had a chance to get my hot little hands on some stock from a breeder whose birds I have seen you describe as "coarse", and IMO, they most assuredly were not. They were not his top show string either, just birds he sold to another breeder who lives near me as a starter flock.

With respect to outcrossing, fixing the comb does not make a bird a Dominique, as there is more to the breed that stripes on the feathers and a rose comb.

If one is mixing breeds and experimenting as a "project" that is one thing, but crossing breeds and presenting them as purebreds is another. One is a hobby, the other is dishonest.

 

[centrarchid]

Did the breeder tell you this personally, or is it something you supposed?

"The coarseness you can not by looking at legs and head."
I'm not sure what you're saying here, please explain. (I do this frequently myself, my mind is going faster than my fingers can peck out the words) I've actually had a chance to get my hot little hands on some stock from a breeder whose birds I have seen you describe as "coarse", and IMO, they most assuredly were not. They were not his top show string either, just birds he sold to another breeder who lives near me as a starter flock.

With respect to outcrossing, fixing the comb does not make a bird a Dominique, as there is more to the breed that stripes on the feathers and a rose comb.

If one is mixing breeds and experimenting as a "project" that is one thing, but crossing breeds and presenting them as purebreds is another. One is a hobby, the other is dishonest.

I supposed, then asked and it was not denied. The addition of Barred Rock to my understanding was done by party having strain before individual I got them from.

You need to have multiple strains in hand to make comparisons. Coarseness as in leg diameter relative to leg length and apparent skull. Birds appear big boned especially with respect to joints. Others have commented on coarseness but yet others say birds I like are more / too gracile. Additionally such "coarse" birds are prone to have toes that are twisted. Birds I acquired were consistent with birds being shown day I acquired them from said breeder. I still consider them true American Dominiques but they were consistently larger / coarser than other strains I had at same time. I made considerable effort to get multiple strains as you likely remember. It is experience they are coarser than is optimal for my rearing system (free-range) and my opinion they are coarser than what the breed used to be during its heyday.


Without a doubt you have birds in your hands that are not solely derived from American Dominiques that where present at times of breed's formal recognition.

If you are challenging my honesty with respect to crossing, that is only with birds of line I am calling Missouri Dominique. American Dominique is reserved only for those birds derived from parties that are currently reputable, sold to me as such, and exhibiting characteristics typical of the breed. My breeding of birds I call American Dominique shall continue using only birds you would call American Dominique. You are stepping on toes.

 

[buffalogal]

"I supposed, then asked and it was not denied. The addition of Barred Rock to my understanding was done by party having strain before individual I got them from."
But who did you ask? The person who created the line, or some guy who got birds from *that* guy? (AKA "the Greenfire Farms effect")

"You need to have multiple strains in hand to make comparisons."
Not really. If you are familiar with the SoP for that breed, it's not difficult to tell if a bird is over size and coarse, or it's not.

"It is experience they are coarser than is optimal for my rearing system (free-range) and my opinion they are coarser than what the breed used to be during its heyday."
I'm having a little trouble imagining a Dominique (or any clean legged LF chicken for that matter) that would be "too coarse" to do well in a free range program.

The only breeds I've seen that didn't thrive free ranging were Silkies, Polish and some Cochins.

"You are stepping on toes."
I am not stepping on your toes. I was *specifically* writing about people who sell mixed breeds as standard purebreds when I used the word dishonest. Like the person who sold the "purebred Dominiques" that produced the brown chick. OTOH, I referred to the folks who make a project out of breeding crossbreeds as as having a "hobby". (That would be you with the Dom/Leghorn/Game mixes.) Why would you think that's challenging your honesty?

 

[centrarchid]

"I supposed, then asked and it was not denied. The addition of Barred Rock to my understanding was done by party having strain before individual I got them from."
But who did you ask? The person who created the line, or some guy who got birds from *that* guy? (AKA "the Greenfire Farms effect")

"You need to have multiple strains in hand to make comparisons."
Not really. If you are familiar with the SoP for that breed, it's not difficult to tell if a bird is over size and coarse, or it's not.

"It is experience they are coarser than is optimal for my rearing system (free-range) and my opinion they are coarser than what the breed used to be during its heyday."
I'm having a little trouble imagining a Dominique (or any clean legged LF chicken for that matter) that would be "too coarse" to do well in a free range program.

The only breeds I've seen that didn't thrive free ranging were Silkies, Polish and some Cochins.

"You are stepping on toes."
I am not stepping on your toes. I was *specifically* writing about people who sell mixed breeds as standard purebreds when I used the word dishonest. Like the person who sold the "purebred Dominiques" that produced the brown chick. OTOH, I referred to the folks who make a project out of breeding crossbreeds as as having a "hobby". (That would be you with the Dom/Leghorn/Game mixes.) Why would you think that's challenging your honesty?

1) Mr. Stichler himself at the Seldalia State Fair circa 2011.

2) As a taxonomist, I state with expertise, you must have reference materials. Descriptions with drawing alone generally not adequate even in taxonomy. Taxonomic descriptions are generally much better than any descriptions of SOP. When comparing strains or breed where differences even less distinct, you must have something to compare with. This is why you do not see what I see. Get birds from other strains and then you will have needed credibility with me.

3) Free-ranging can have requirements for efficiency of travel (impacts rate of gain), flight capacity to reach roost (I select on so predators do not), dressout (I like meat over bones for consumption), and disease resistance that differs from confinement

4) One day I hope to meet you at some show where my birds can beat yours even in the looks department. The fun will be your questioning the purity of my stock. MIne will also actually function as they breeds original use and be true Heritage by all measures. You will still have your fluffy show fowl. I am calling you out.

 

[BearSpringsFarm]

1) Mr. Stichler himself at the Seldalia State Fair circa 2011.

2) As a taxonomist, I state with expertise, you must have reference materials. Descriptions with drawing alone generally not adequate even in taxonomy. Taxonomic descriptions are generally much better than any descriptions of SOP. When comparing strains or breed where differences even less distinct, you must have something to compare with. This is why you do not see what I see. Get birds from other strains and then you will have needed credibility with me.

3) Free-ranging can have requirements for efficiency of travel (impacts rate of gain), flight capacity to reach roost (I select on so predators do not), dressout (I like meat over bones for consumption), and disease resistance that differs from confinement

4) One day I hope to meet you at some show where my birds can beat yours even in the looks department. The fun will be your questioning the purity of my stock. MIne will also actually function as they breeds original use and be true Heritage by all measures. You will still have your fluffy show fowl. I am calling you out.

Wow guys - I was not trying to start an argument

- it seems to me that both of you are rather knowledgable about what you do. On the other hand - I am NOT a breeder and have no intentions of selling my birds at all (unless someone close to home just wants some good layers) and I certainly would not sell them as "American Dominiques" since I am not aware of their source. On the other hand, I do not believe that I was intentionally sold some crossbred bird as an "American Dominique" - as the man only said they were "Dominique". I have no problem with that as I do NOT intend to show these birds (or any of my birds). If anyone ever "shows" any of my birds it will only be my children at a local 4-H fair and I highly doubt it would be the "dominiques" as they are both in love with the EE's (and for good reason - they are quite young and like the egg colors - LOL). As far as showing your birds - I sincerely wish both of you the best of luck - it's just not for me. I once had a man GIVE me his prize purebred white silkie roo (his hens got eaten and he was rather old and decided not to start over) - needless to say he was pretty useless - by far the BIGGEST COWARD I have EVER seen when it comes to a roo. (No wonder his hens got eaten.) Hey, on the other hand - he was a great pet - and overall didn't eat too much!

Centrarchid - I would like to ask you a question - the "dominiques" that I have with the spiked rose combs and some reddish feathers - is there a strand that you are aware of in the Mid-eastern US that fits this discription? I only ask this because the birds that I have are the type of "dominiques" that I remember my grandparents having in the mid to late 80s. The roos are rather large with really thick yellow legs, yellow beaks, and a greenish sheen to their tail feathers. The hens are the same size as my purebred light brahma hens - with yellow legs, yellow beaks with a bit of black near the face, and a few sparse red feathers. Both the roos and hens are very docile and the hens are great layers (mine average 6 eggs a week through winter!) MOST of the "dominiques" around my home town look like this (yes there are people breeding and selling them online as "dominiques" as well) to the point that not many people seem to know what a true "American Dominique" looks like (I have been told that if they don't have spikes they are not dominiques by a local man that sells them). Could it be that back in the 70's or early 80's someone around here started a breeding program like the one that you were talking about with your "Missouri Dominiques" and just left the spiked comb and deemed it a different strand of "dominique" possibly with something red mixed in?

 

[buffalogal]

1) I'll be sure Mike gets a chance to answer that.

2) With all due respect, writing as someone with common sense, a Dominique is a breed of chicken, not a specie. As such, the Standard of Perfection *is* the written "reference material". (though I would add that the Dominique breeders are blessed in that we also have Mark Fields book) Whether or not a Taxonomic description is "better" at identification is irrelevant, since they don't write them to describe the individual breeds of chickens. I do not need to obtain birds from "other strains" to be able to see the difference between them. If you are observant, and not too full of yourself, that ability is something you develop when you've been raising standard bred poultry for a while.

3) Well my my.

With the exception of temporary confinement in a breeding pen to collect purebred eggs, every one of my birds is free ranging 365 days a year. If it's in MY yard, it's already mastered "efficiency of travel", "flight capacity" and disease resistance, as well as "ability to instinctively avoid predators", "natural breeding", "calm, even, yet alert temperament" and "successful mothering". I'm a vegetarian, so I can't speak for their "dressout", but they grow well and attain the standard weights, lay quite well and do it while economically rustling the majority of their own grub at least nine months out of the year. IOW, I have a whole flock of birds already successfully doing that 'free range' thing, and have been for over a decade. Around here, I just call that 'being a chicken'.

4) "One day I hope to meet you at some show where my birds can beat yours even in the looks department. The fun will be your questioning the purity of my stock. Mine will also actually function as they breeds original use and be true Heritage by all measures. You will still have your fluffy show fowl. I am calling you out."

You're calling me out? Seriously, stop. You are killing me.

FWIW, I'd just love to meet you too. Let's make it a date. I'm busy running a dairy right now and won't be able to travel until March but how about next spring in Sedalia? Don't they have a pretty nice show up there? Winner buys dinner, and in case Fred Farthing beats us both, we have to buy Fred and Judy's dinner.

 

[centrarchid]

Centrarchid - I would like to ask you a question - the "dominiques" that I have with the spiked rose combs and some reddish feathers - is there a strand that you are aware of in the Mid-eastern US that fits this discription? I only ask this because the birds that I have are the type of "dominiques" that I remember my grandparents having in the mid to late 80s. The roos are rather large with really thick yellow legs, yellow beaks, and a greenish sheen to their tail feathers. The hens are the same size as my purebred light brahma hens - with yellow legs, yellow beaks with a bit of black near the face, and a few sparse red feathers. Both the roos and hens are very docile and the hens are great layers (mine average 6 eggs a week through winter!) MOST of the "dominiques" around my home town look like this (yes there are people breeding and selling them online as "dominiques" as well) to the point that not many people seem to know what a true "American Dominique" looks like (I have been told that if they don't have spikes they are not dominiques by a local man that sells them). Could it be that back in the 70's or early 80's someone around here started a breeding program like the one that you were talking about with your "Missouri Dominiques" and just left the spiked comb and deemed it a different strand of "dominique" possibly with something red mixed in?

It is very well possible an individual or even a group was working on something in your home area. I would be surprised if no such effort occurred. The current definition of American Dominique is more restrictive than it used to be prior to the breeds recognition. In those days base color may have included various reds and browns and size may have been more variable as well. Without SOP as guide we are prone to drift with respect to what a proper Dominique should look like. Lots of people I used to know simply used color pattern to say Dominique or no.