D'uccle Thread

[acid_chipmunk]

D'Angelo N Va. :

I went to a poultry show today in Va. and they had a Mille Fleur D'Uccle for judging. I pointed out that I had never seen a D'Uccle w/o any feathers on the feet...is this true? it was totally clean legged. I told her it was definitely a Mille Fleur, but not a D'Uccles. I don't think she appreciated me telling her that...I could tell by the look. she said she would move it....am I wrong for saying something??

No you aren't wrong. I would have said something too. However, any judge that knows what the standard for d'Uccle is, would know that is a DQ.​

 

[nuttyredhead]

Quote:
What does dispatched mean? I have 3 D'uccles - 2 bearded hens approx 1 1/2 year old from Shay20 they are the sweetest things! And one approx. 4/5 months who is not bearded, my husband called her freckles (the kids call her dottie!). I will take some pics tomorrow!!!

 

[Celtic Hill]

Quote:
No you aren't wrong. I would have said something too. However, any judge that knows what the standard for d'Uccle is, would know that is a DQ.

D'vanders (idk if i go that spelling right) are basically clean legged duccles

 

[Gypsylion]

Quote:
So sorry for all the frustrations... I can relate and it sux.

What makes you sure it's not Marek's? I only ask because I have been struggling with Marek's since my first batch of chicks (with at least 2 birds confirmed by necropsy), and your symptoms sound really similar: it tends to be worst in chicks around 8-12 wks; many of them will be fine one day, sick the next, and dead within 24 hrs; it often involves weakening of the legs (which can seem like splaying issues); it often involves difficulty breathing, like the gasping you describe (possibly from lesions in the lungs); and it's definitely contagious, but often won't affect everyone. It's also a virus, and therefore not treatable with antibiotics.

The only way to diagnose it with any certainty is by necropsy, so if you want to know for sure, you'll have to take one to your vet to send for testing (usually they'll only accept fresh birds within hours of the time-of-death to ensure that the tissue is still able to be sampled). Have you talked to your vet about what's going on?

Based on my experiences (including a lot of emergency vet visits with very sick birds), there aren't many other diseases that knock them out so quickly...

Disclaimer: this is only based on my own experiences with my own small flock. Obviously there are many illnesses out there and I haven't dealt with them all, nor am I a vet.

 

[spook]

Quote:
So sorry for all the frustrations... I can relate and it sux.

What makes you sure it's not Marek's? I only ask because I have been struggling with Marek's since my first batch of chicks (with at least 2 birds confirmed by necropsy), and your symptoms sound really similar: it tends to be worst in chicks around 8-12 wks; many of them will be fine one day, sick the next, and dead within 24 hrs; it often involves weakening of the legs (which can seem like splaying issues); it often involves difficulty breathing, like the gasping you describe (possibly from lesions in the lungs); and it's definitely contagious, but often won't affect everyone. It's also a virus, and therefore not treatable with antibiotics.

The only way to diagnose it with any certainty is by necropsy, so if you want to know for sure, you'll have to take one to your vet to send for testing (usually they'll only accept fresh birds within hours of the time-of-death to ensure that the tissue is still able to be sampled). Have you talked to your vet about what's going on?

Based on my experiences (including a lot of emergency vet visits with very sick birds), there aren't many other diseases that knock them out so quickly...

Disclaimer: this is only based on my own experiences with my own small flock. Obviously there are many illnesses out there and I haven't dealt with them all, nor am I a vet.

Gypsie, I guess I have no way to say it. Wouldn't affect the others that are still in the same pen? I should but am unable to afford such a thing at this point in time. After all, I just spent big bucks to improve my flock. I have taken 3 chicks to the vet and a adult MF hen. She had gasping respritory issues with loud, sounded like a call for danger. Her feet never went out from under her and no idea where it may have come from if is dormant and comes back, Idk.

Now diseases show different types of splaying. I am certainly unknowing on 99% of my issues...or I may have a clue but gosh, diseases can change symptoms like the common cold in us. Now with Mereks one leg is out behind, the other one forward. Correct?
But, her head will drop down, almost making circling motions and then sink it in like she has no neck. So its confusing as I have the computer and then "chicken health handbook". After giving her egg w/cheese last night, her crop is full this morning. She seems alert, but when she naps her eyes dilate almost to the color ring and then flash back down to pin heads, and eventually will focus.
I realize this is not conversation for the D'uccle thread, but where these are a bit different genetics as other birds, I wonder if just not cut out to be D' breeder.

Now, if it is Mereks, I should have my whole flock medicated to prevent any further outbreaks, correct. How did you work it out within your own flock? When you go to show your birds, have you genetically breed resistant strain? And another thing I've got to look into is will this make other birds ill in a show (for instance) if I inoculate. Some say yes, others say no on that.

hmmmm...so many questions, so few answers (until I ask the smart kids!

) Again, I appreciate all your input and Thank you.

 

[spook]

Um, I do want to say guys that I do believe its Mereks too. After finding the types, I can see this. From another site, I'll quote:

In the neural form the sciatic nerve is swollen causing lameness to the point of paralysis in the legs, dropped wings, “gaping” (gasping for breath), weight loss and diarrhea. The birds can't get to food and water without assistance and may be trampled by other chickens.

The visceral form is only observed by an overall wasting. During autopsy tumors on many of the internal organs can be seen.

Occasionally a chicken will seem to resolve his symptoms and function normally for a short time. This is almost always followed by death due to the growth of internal tumors.

Ok, now lets hear what you do, have done with your D's to over come this.​

 

[Chickie'sMoma]

if those chicks hatched with it you may need to fumigate your incubator.

 

[wegotchickens]

I think Mareks has to be one of the most frustrating issues there is for ANY poultry breeder.

Yes, there is a vaccine, but it must be given at an early age and given to all birds. I've read that bringing an unvaccinated bird into a vaccinated flock will cause it to get Mareks.
I do not vaccinate and a bird I sold to someone with a vaccinated flock came down with Mareks (according to a lab report). I don't know if that proves anything. As I said before, I cull any chicks that show any symptoms of hip or leg issues. Maybe I've had a touch of mareks? I don't know. But flock mates of the birds I've culled are leading healthy lives.

A silkie breeder I met locally does not give his birds the vaccines. He believes that since Mareks is literally everywhere we are doing a disadvantage to the birds to innoculate them. If any bird is his breeding program show signs of Mareks he promptly dispatches (kills) and disposes of them. In his opinion, this strengthens the breed. I can see his point.



spook, Marek's doesn't just affect d'Uccle breederes. So if you want to stay in poultry you'll have to decide what stretegy you want to follow. I'm following the no innoculations strategy. Maybe it will rise up and bite me? I don't know. But for now, it appears to be working. I clean the coops every 7-10 days, clean the bator with an antibacterial soap, and keep my brooder clean. I use fresh feed. I do my best to be a good caretaker, including protein treats and some free-range time at least once a week.


That said, my birds were acting 'off' for the past couple of weeks, and I had a run of really bad luck with my gold necks. I'm rebuilding as best I can on the goldnecks.
But I feel like an idiot on the 'off' issue. Turns out the water tank I use had a bad build-up of black mold. I knew I was having to scrub the waterers more often but it never occured to me that I could be giving them bad water from the source. New note to myself: Inspect the barrel more often! Adding ACV to the waterers was not enough to help them out.

Now DH and I are trying to determine what triggered the mold. The barrel, or the hose we use to fill it.

 

[Gypsylion]

Quote:
ETA: Wegotchickens beat me to some of this.

Yeah, sorry for having this all on the d'uccle thread, everyone... though it is about our d'uccles, so... are we forgiven?

You're totally right about diseases being so hard to diagnose. The only reason I have any confidence with this is because I have worked with my vet extensively.

Marek's is a tricky one... I found that some seem to be more resistant than others so not everyone is affected, but I would recommend immediately separating out the ones that show symptoms and putting them in quarantine (preferably as far away from the other birds as possible, like, in a different building or part of the building - as I understand it can be transmitted by feather dander from the sick ones). In my experience, all of my young birds that got it died (though one apparently had a slow-working form and I thought he was going to pull through for over a month). I have one adult bird (bantam cochin) that seems to have had an episode and hasn't been able to stand since September, but after initially being really sick, he's now eating and drinking well, and I'm doing PT to get his leg strength back up (yes, I'm doing PT with my chicken - and he does it himself half the time!).

Here's the other frustrating part: you can't medicate against it, and you shouldn't medicate unless you know what you're medicating for anyway (that is how we get resistant diseases). It's a virus, so antibiotics won't do any good anyway (unless you have secondary infections, which usually don't have time to develop with something this quick). There's a vaccine that you can give to day-old chicks to decrease the chance of them developing the disease (not anyone older... the vaccine just doesn't work that way), and most hatcheries offer the option to have chicks vaccinated. So really all you can do is quarantine them, make sure they're as comfortable as possible and getting food and water, and hope.

As for showing and future contagiousness. You're right... everyone has different opinions. Here's my thought on it (and I realize some of you may feel differently): From what I've learned, Marek's is common... it's in the general environment, can be transmitted by wild birds, and doesn't really go away over time unless there are absolutely no birds there for multiple years which doesn't happen as long as you still have wild birds there. All of this leads me to believe that MOST poultry has probably been exposed to it at some point, which is why it seems to affect chicks more strongly (i.e. most of the adults have already encountered it). Combine that with the knowledge that you can only diagnose it with a necropsy, which very few poultry owners can pay for, and that many poultry owners, understandably, will simply cull (kill, not give away) any bird that shows signs of illness without trying to diagnose the illness, and you end up with a LOT of birds that have at least been exposed to it or are carriers of it without their owners knowing. Which means it's already AT the shows.

Conclusion: if everyone who has ever had a confirmed case of Marek's in their flock, much less everyone who thought they might have had it at some point, avoided ever going to shows or swaps, then the only people left at the public events would be the ones who were either ignorant that they have it or just didn't care and are going to go anyway.

The question of whether or not people who know they have had Marek's at some point should be branded with a scarlett letter or the like (I see a potential analogy here to HIV/Aids as well), is a sociological question that may need to be addressed by the poultry keeping culture as a whole. But then where do you draw the line? Will we all need to eventually list all of the diseases that we *think* we may have had at some point on our entry forms? Note: I haven't talked with that many long-time breeders and exhibitors about this. The ones I have spoken with seemed to have an attitude that it's really no different from any other disease you may have had: healthy birds generally aren't contagious, so as long as you only bring healthy birds to a show it's fine.

So I do what I can do, and this is the level of responsibility I expect of others: I keep my birds' housing clean, I feed them good food and clean water, I observe them daily for any signs of malady and immediately quarantine anyone who seems sick, I work with my vet to ensure that I know what I'm dealing with as much as possible (expensive, yes, and I have very little money, but I chose to keep these pets and vet care goes along with it), and yes, I still go to swaps and shows with absolutely healthy birds. I think that yes, because it's likely that my birds have been exposed to it (including my chicks), the birds I have left are the more resistant ones, so maybe I am increasing resistance in the breed overall.

Lastly, I have thought a lot about partnering with my vet (Countryside Vet Hospital in N. Chelmsford, MA - AAHA's Accredited Practice of the Year!) or others to instigate some small-flock research into diseases like Marek's. Currently nearly all of the poultry disease research that has been done has been for the poultry industry, where preventing disease for a short lifespan in fundamentally unhealthy conditions is their focus. Which I think is part of why, for example, there are only methods to diagnose Marek's in dead birds (I imagine sick birds are generally culled because it's not worthwhile to quarantine/treat individual birds) and we don't know much else about it. Hopefully with the increase in small-flock owners and as poultry become more like average pets then cheap livestock, more people will be willing to fund research that will help us better understand and treat diseases like this.

Okay... end strong opinion, begin strong responses...

 

[spook]

Wow you guys are great. Thank you so much for your opinions, it means a lot just to hear how someone else handles things. Stupid me gave birds away a very short while ago. Ugh. Now, some will call me completely stupid but I wrote the lady, told her that if she too began having the issue that I would pay her enough money to bring in new birds of her choice. I do not want the reputation in life that this could hold. As well as you folks.

See, I had my 3 MF D's at a show in August. 3 weeks ago I culled her due to lung issues or so I thought until I read an article about MD. These 2 D' chicks were from them...that said, my hutch with the remaining 2 in it are seemingly fine and I thought it was one of those pesky Mycoplasma's.

I agree with not inoculating birds and actually told a chicken friend that to not give shots unless she already had an issue assuming it would make them carriers. That said, it does make them carriers in which we breeders of any breed, even mutts need to take responsibility of our own flock, let alone passing it off to another. That to me is poor stewardship to the breeders that are making way of bettering their stock.

These birds that are affected or were infected, have been in the "chicken room" in the house. Was in hopes to raise up quality stock this winter for spring/summer "judging" to see if they would better my flock of D's. I try to use the best biosecurity as possible, with the hen I was unsure of what she had the Vet looked at her, put her down and cremated. Who knows. This is hopefully done, I've removed eggs and will clean it, begin again in the spring if all goes well! Once I know that these other birds are well, I'll put them into another room, clean, wash, paint to prevent any further issues.
I really appreciate your listening to me whine and feel my frustration. Now make sure you guys fill me in on how you will continue breeding or what your next projects are. I absolutely adore the MF D's! Such clowns!