EE/Ameraucana frustration

[Bullitt]

Breeds are all about standards.

If two Labrador Retrievers are bred and you get say a yellow and black dog (I know this is unlikely) or the dog is bigger or smaller than the standard, the offspring dog would not be considered a Labrador Retriever at a dog show. However, if you started breeding for a yellow and black breed, you could create a new breed of dog.

"Easter Eggers," which are not a recognized breed, are all different colors, and from what I have learned recently, can lay blue, green, or even brown eggs. And the offspring will probably look different than the parents. This is because Easter Eggers are all mixed up.

The hatcheries call them Ameraucana because they are easier to sell that way than saying they are mixed-breed chickens that lay colorful eggs.

 

[kathyinmo]

The history of the breed says otherwise...

Here is the history of the breed..............
http://www.ameraucana.org/history.html

This is a good description and answers questions....
http://www.ameraucana.org/faq.html

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

Yep. I have read it.

 

[they'reHISchickens]

So chicken people need what other species have: Grade and Purebred of the variety. Or we have grade chickens and Show Quality chickens. Tell your friend he may have Ameraucana's but they are grade level and not Show Quality. Then you have Purebred and Registered. In Dogs you can have purebreds but no one beleives you unless you have the registration verifying that. ho hum.
In dairy cattle for years if the colors weren't correct you could not register a cow so she became a Grade even though her parents were registered. ( Blame recessive genes-- that's how they weeded them out.) After almost a century, they were losing so many good animals and needed more genetic diversity that we now have Genetic Recovery animals : if you breed a grade to a registered bull you can register the offspring under GR. I think after a number of generations you can drop the GR.
So, how many of us want to register our purebred chickens? I think so long as we advertise honestly, we call them what they are: chickens, or SQ chickens.

 

[mom'sfolly]

Here, I find find the anti-EEs, not!Ameraucana people the most firm about chickens fitting the standard. Most people accept that an RIR or a SWL from a hatchery is not going to be show quality. They don't say they aren't a RIR or a SLW, they just say they are not bred to standard. The Ameraucana people say that hatchery stock is not Ameraucana...it may be that this is because it is a newer breed and they want the clarity.

In my opinion, they take it a little far. But I don't breed and I'm just interested in backyard chickens that lay well not show birds. It has always seemed to me that the only Ameraucanas allowed are show quality birds, everything else is an EE, even if it is just the wrong color, and meets the standard in every other way.

 

[Stacykins]

It as just as frustrating when people think their muffed, tailed, and bearded birds are Araucanas here in the U.S. The standards for the rest of the world are different and allow such traits, but HERE an Araucana is tufted and rumpless, and no large hatchery sells them. Yet many hatcheries still call their EEs Araucanas, just like they call their EEs Ameraucanas, and it confuses the heck out of people. Irritating, to say the least.

I am not bashing EEs, many are lovely and unique. But don't call them something that they aren't.

 

[dainerra]

Breeds are all about standards.

If two Labrador Retrievers are bred and you get say a yellow and black dog (I know this is unlikely) or the dog is bigger or smaller than the standard, the offspring dog would not be considered a Labrador Retriever at a dog show. However, if you started breeding for a yellow and black breed, you could create a new breed of dog.

yes, it would be considered a lab at a dog show. I don't know why it wouldn't? Shoot, look at GSDs. They come in many different lines and varieties. So different that they barely look like the same type of dog, yet they are all GSDs. If I take my Czech working line GSD to an AKC dog show, no one in the show field would be interested in him. But he is still a purebred GSD.

Or Panda Shepherds. A new mutation in the German Shepherds. It's not a new breed, just a new color. The dogs can't be entered in shows because the color isn't acceptable, but they are still purebred and no one will deny that. Well, after the initial call for DNA tests to make sure that another dog hadn't snuck into the mix.

 

[redhen]

yes, it would be considered a lab at a dog show. I don't know why it wouldn't? Shoot, look at GSDs. They come in many different lines and varieties. So different that they barely look like the same type of dog, yet they are all GSDs. If I take my Czech working line GSD to an AKC dog show, no one in the show field would be interested in him. But he is still a purebred GSD.

Or Panda Shepherds. A new mutation in the German Shepherds. It's not a new breed, just a new color. The dogs can't be entered in shows because the color isn't acceptable, but they are still purebred and no one will deny that. Well, after the initial call for DNA tests to make sure that another dog hadn't snuck into the mix.

Yeah, I was thinking that ... why wouldn't it still be called a lab if its a pure breed?

 

[Bullitt]

Because it doesn't meet the standards. It's the same reason that if two pure breed chickens have offspring that do not meet the standard, then that offspring does not qualify.

Pure breed animals can be created by selecting for certain traits. "If I take my Czech working line GSD to an AKC dog show, no one in the show field would be interested in him."

Exactly. For people who care about breeding, it matters. Your German Shepherd does not meet the standard for the breed.

I think mutts make the best dogs, and maybe the best chickens also. But for breeding standards, it matters.

Here is a description of the Labrador Retriever by the AKC.

Size, Proportion and Substance
Size--The height at the withers for a dog is 22½ to 24½ inches; for a ***** is 21½ to 23½ inches. Any variance greater than ½ inch above or below these heights is a disqualification. Approximate weight of dogs and bitches in working condition: dogs 65 to 80 pounds; bitches 55 to 70 pounds.

Here is a description from the Ameraucana Breeders Club: http://www.ameraucana.org/faq.html

What are the major differences between Ameraucana and Araucana chickens?
Both breeds lay eggs with shells colored various shades of blue, have pea combs, and should have red earlobes. Beyond that few similarities exist in specimens meeting the requirements of recognized poultry standards. Perhaps 99 percent of chickens sold as Araucanas (or Ameraucanas) by commercial hatcheries are actually mongrels (aka Easter Egg chickens), meeting the requirements of neither breed.
According to the American Poultry Association (APA), the Araucana breed must be rumpless (no tail) and have ear tufts. Ear tufts are clumps of feathers growing from small tabs of skin usually found at or near the region of the ear openings. This feature is unique in the U.S. to the Araucana breed. This trait is nearly always lethal to unhatched chicks when inherited from both parents. Tufted Araucanas, therefore, are always genetically impure, i.e., they don't breed true and will always produce a percentage of "clean-faced" offspring.
The Ameraucana breed, on the other hand, has a tail and sports muffs and beard in the facial area. These characteristics are true-breeding. Other requirements of both breeds may be found in the APA's Standard of Perfection and in the American Bantam Association's (ABA) Bantam Standard.

​

What are Easter Egg chickens?
The Ameraucana Breeders Club defines an Easter Egg chicken or Easter Egger as any chicken that possesses the blue egg gene, but doesn’t fully meet any breed descriptions as defined in the APA and/or ABA standards. Further, even if a bird meets an Ameraucana standard breed description, but doesn’t meet a variety description or breed true at least 50% of the time it is considered an Easter Egg chicken.

 

[rebelcowboysnb]

Because it doesn't meet the standards.

The standard has no meaning or power over what a breed is. The APA, AKC an what ever other group you can come up with are clubs that put on shows an make rules for there members. If you are not showing in there shows there standard does not apply. Probably 99% of the chicken owner population are not members of the APA an are free to call an sell there birds under any name they see fit. Unless they are claming to meet standard or be show show stock the it does not matter.