Fecal Float Questions

[Sue Gremlin]

They look like hookworms to me. Use to do FFs all the time in vet clinics and that was my initial thought when I saw them. Always liked looking at poop under a microscope wish I had one at home.

Fortunately, chickens don't get hookworms.

 

[Sue Gremlin]

So I have a question about seeing flagette protoza... How does one normally see these? Direct smear of floatation?

A direct smear. Put a drop of saline (I use contact lens saline) on a slide, and dip the corner of a coffee stirrer or stick into a poop so you have a tiny amount. Stir it into the saline and pop a cover slip over it. You have to look at these with your oil lens (100x) to make them out, but it's SO FUN when you do.
My chickens have some kind of nonpathogenic trichomonads in their mouths, so all I have to do is take a water sample from their waterer.

Flagellates are very very delicate and can be difficult to see in the case of Giardia. But trichomonads tend to be more numerous. They must be viewed in very fresh feces in saline. Any other solution will cause them to collapse and disintegrate.

 

[Sue Gremlin]

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Giardia trophozoites (and cysts) are notoriously hard to find, and even harder to stain that well! I look at these photos with sheer envy.

 

[Sue Gremlin]

Cecal worm pictures!

From a Guinea necropsy. The cause of death was cancer, not worms.

Spoiler: Necropsy

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Rooster poop
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hen necropsy (2012) Cause of death was probably blackhead

Spoiler: Hen Necropsy

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If you get actual worms, put those under a scope. If you get them to lay flat on a drop of saline on a slide, you'll be able to tell what it is by looking at the body parts. Cecal worms have a really distinctive spicule (male parts). They are so fun and interesting to look at up close and personal.

 

[casportpony]

If you get actual worms, put those under a scope. If you get them to lay flat on a drop of saline on a slide, you'll be able to tell what it is by looking at the body parts. Cecal worms have a really distinctive spicule (male parts). They are so fun and interesting to look at up close and personal.

Next time I will! Since they were in the ceca, pretty sure they were cecal
worms.

Oh, and the rooster one was in cecal poop.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

And I forgot to ask, why do you think a drug used for fairly mundane parasite treatment is poison?

Many, many things ARE poison if used in different proportions..

I personally think the mundane drink that intoxicates us known as alcohol is poison. And in fact it is.. so it's just a matter of what we choose to focus on.

Antibiotics are poison to bacteria (when not needed).. give a large enough amount and watch the consumer crap their guts out.. giving poisons in amounts that effect tiny creatures more than they effect the big one doesn't make them not poison, to me. It just makes them less toxic to the larger animal. oh and then let them crap it out straight into my water supply so I can unconsciously drink antibiotics everyday.. uhn't uh!

Situation always matters.. just recently one of my dogs came down with upper respiratory symptoms, consider likely viral but was given a 10 day round of "broad spectrum" antibiotics to fight off possible secondary infection since it had persisted too long and blood was included in the secretion from nostril also described as containing puss. Total visit including meds $110.. when no other dogs presented with symptoms and no improvement was seen, diagnosis came in at $830 that cancer was actively causing pain and she was sent home with heavy narcotics so she could be comfortable until we helped my furry friend meet a peaceful end for her and us as best possible, this past Monday .. using pharmaceuticals under professional care.. and $200.

My vets original comment on our first trip this round was "your dogs aren't protected against anything other than rabies since they aren't vaccinated", meaning.. bortadella, canine influenza, leptosperosis or adult boosters for parvo virus, etc. I don't board, see the groomer, or do dog parks.. and they still have immune systems.. I almost felt appalled, but he's a straight shooter on his view.. which is give more drugs.

For the first time in 6+ years here we are fighting off fleas (due to a new and known vector).. according to the vet all 3 of my dogs and both my cats should have been on monthly preventative treatment.. That would have been a whole lot of treatment for no reason (360 monthly treatments to be exact).. Now my need has changed, I am reconsidering my options. They insist I've been lucky. I have no doubt that my vet has more experience and especially about the local conditions. Did you know that there are over 2200 varieties of fleas?!

Saying you can prevent what you don't have is like saying the people in Arizona preventing tsunamis by dry-scaping.. and it's effective because guess what.. they're not having tsunamis in Arizona. Or as one poster put it.. sprinkling baby powder around your yard here in the US is a very effective method of preventing elephants from trampling your plants..

Of course I will use medication IF needed, regardless if it comes from big pharma.. but I won't blindly support them to prevent what I don't have.

I also refuse to throw medication fixes at unknown illness possibly masking the real symptoms or causing others.

Also, although I value and appreciate the scientific advances of where we are at in this day and age.. the body does this amazing thing called self healing.. it produces it's own anti bodies, t cells, etc. Life is amazing and intricate and hardy!

We all have reasons we feel the way we do.. some of it brain washing from our upbringing, fear mongering, and social media.

Being in California, raised in the central San Joaquin valley.. a hub of agriculture where fields were constantly sprayed with pesticide etc.. and half my family dying (or dead already) from different types of cancers, literally.. including lung cancer in my cousins' 30"s when never smoking OR being in second hand smoke, breast cancer, stomach cancer, and pancreatic cancer, non Hodgkin's lymphoma.. JUST for starters!

We are also taught tons about the impact on the wildlife and environment surrounding non farm land.. later in life.. I live in the redwoods, battle rodents without poison and believe in a quick humane death when possible. I work to understand my environment and live as complimentary as possible recognizing there is an entire ecosystem and I'm just one thread in the giant web of life. Wild animals *can* carry plenty of stuff.. but they aren't usually packed in heavy numbers on the same ground over and over.. they keep moving.

I DO use things when needed.. I use permethryn as perimeter spray INSIDE my house. I have also used it effectively against poultry lice, according to the directions.

I never accept the results of a negative fecal, I have to run it a second time to be sure.

You know.. I questioned my vets results several times and their method. Especially when they find zero.. in any of my species floats.

When I do finally arrive at flotation time my original intent was to also have the same sample done by the vet (but planning ahead maybe mail in is much cheaper) in order to compare results. Also my adult son is on board with running duplicate samples for practice.

Also, anyone know.. I THOUGHT coccidia were in every chicken dropping and can not understand if that's the case why they never come back on my counts?

@casportpony You went and complicated things (for my over thinking brain) posting that 3rd opinion that wormed and got results. That's fantastic, LOL! Even with all the tools and understanding we still can't perceive everything. Enlightening.

 

[Chicalina]

@EggSighted4Life I'm so sorry to hear about your dog.

There are big problems with consumers wanting cheap food, massive scale intensive farming practices, supply and demand (aka market captialism), and the routine use of drugs in livestock farming and pesticides/fertilisers in agriculture. This is the Western World's way, driven by the consumer and by profit. And I don't like it any more than you do.

In fact, you may not know, but here there is hugely strong public opposition to the UK doing a trade deal with the US to import chlorinated chicken meat. I have no idea why the US chlorinates meat but can make a few guesses.

As for my flock, I am a big fan of natural remedies where possible, and of sensible use of drugs where necessary.

This has been an interesting debate, albeit an unexpected one, and there are things on which we agree and others on which we disagree (but not massively). Best wishes to you and your flock.

 

[Sue Gremlin]

Also, anyone know.. I THOUGHT coccidia were in every chicken dropping and can not understand if that's the case why they never come back on my counts?

There could be a couple of reasons:
Coccidia, in a healthy chicken, probably come and go, so they don't shed oocysts consistently. It could also be that your chickens are not infected, which seems unlikely, but still possible, theoretically. Third, it could be your flotation technique: Using enough feces? Is your solution dense enough? Are you looking with the correct lens? (need the 40x, they are very small), are you allowing the solution to sit long enough so the oocysts float to the top? Are you using older feces or fresh?

You generally do expect to see some oocysts, but it's not uncommon that the sample is clear.

 

[Folly's place]

Fecals done with the centrifuge technique are the most reliable, but not practical at home (they are very expensive!). The solution matters too, and getting a sample the moment that target critters happen to be present.
Coccidia are not that easy to ID anyway, compared to the large worm eggs.
Mary

 

[Isaac 0]

Fecals done with the centrifuge technique are the most reliable, but not practical at home (they are very expensive!). The solution matters too, and getting a sample the moment that target critters happen to be present.
Coccidia are not that easy to ID anyway, compared to the large worm eggs.
Mary

I believe you can get a Centrifuge off amazon for only fifty-bucks or so. I think doing the centrifugal flotation technique is way worth it compared to doing the not so accurate normal/passive flotation method.

This was interesting,

:So what proof do we have that centrifugal flotation is better than passive flotation? I perform an interesting exercise every year in my parasitology class by using a fecal sample from a dog with a hookworm burden typical of what practitioners would see in pet dogs. The students are divided into three groups. One group performs a direct smear, another group mixes 2 g of feces with flotation solution and performs a passive flotation procedure, and the third group uses 2 g of feces and performs the centrifugal flotation procedure.

Each year the results are graphic. Usually only 25% of the students performing the direct smear recover hookworm eggs. About 70% of the students performing the passive flotation procedure report seeing hookworm eggs. And every year, without exception, 100% of the students performing the centrifugal flotation procedure report recovering hookworm eggs. This simple exercise convinces my students of the improved sensitivity of centrifugation. Improved recovery rates using centrifugal flotation procedures are also substantiated by published studies.1-4"

https://capcvet.org/articles/why-fecal-centrifugation-is-better/