Feed Quality- Long Term Effects?

[MadGardener]

I acquired a flock of chickens from a couple who was moving in August. 1 ISA Brown, 2 Golden Comets, and 7 Columbian Wyandottes. The Wyandottes hatched around Easter 2021, the brown gals are of unknown age.

The chickens and all of their gear were free in exchange for pulling down a half fallen pine! However, all chickens were confined and fed only cracked corn when we got them. The older gals had not been laying.

I have switched them to 16% layer feed on mobile pasture. They have access to grit and oyster shell. The older hens started laying about a week after we got them. Overall the gals seem happy. Their poops look normal now, not so much on the corn.

I am seeing soft shell eggs fairly regularly from one or more of the older hens. This seemed to improve with a vitamin supplement added to their water, but a month later has reappeared. Could this be due to prolonged inadequate diet?

Is much known about the long term consequences? I'd like to get a roo in the spring and work toward a self sustaining flock. Would poorly fed gals be suitable to breed? One of the Wyandottes is massive and matured much earlier, traits I'd like to select for. Thanks!

 

[TPC]

I acquired a flock of chickens from a couple who was moving in August. 1 ISA Brown, 2 Golden Comets, and 7 Columbian Wyandottes. The Wyandottes hatched around Easter 2021, the brown gals are of unknown age.

The chickens and all of their gear were free in exchange for pulling down a half fallen pine! However, all chickens were confined and fed only cracked corn when we got them. The older gals had not been laying.

I have switched them to 16% layer feed on mobile pasture. They have access to grit and oyster shell. The older hens started laying about a week after we got them. Overall the gals seem happy. Their poops look normal now, not so much on the corn.

I am seeing soft shell eggs fairly regularly from one or more of the older hens. This seemed to improve with a vitamin supplement added to their water, but a month later has reappeared. Could this be due to prolonged inadequate diet?

Is much known about the long term consequences? I'd like to get a roo in the spring and work toward a self sustaining flock. Would poorly fed gals be suitable to breed? One of the Wyandottes is massive and matured much earlier, traits I'd like to select for. Thanks!

Here is the "basics" to feeding.

Layer feed: Usually has less protein. Chickens need 18% at least, for best feather growth. This is especially important during this time of year, when chickens are molting. Even though layer feed has calcium, IMO, you always need to provide oyster shells on the side. I have mine in a container thats in the coop. It is always filled. Do not mix it with the feed.

Grower: Has more protein. Usually about 20%. Provide oyster shells on the side where it cannot get wet. Laying hens can eat this as well. Its better on a rooster's kidney as chickens eat the calcium when needed. You may not see them eat it, but usually they are.

I feed Flock raiser 20% protein. Its basically feed for chicks, hens, pullets, and males. Doesn't matter. I have a mixed flock, so this is what works best. I provide ouster shells like said above. When I have time, I also bake and crush their egg shells for them, which they seems to prefer.

I do not feed treats often. Glad you took in these birds, because they wouldn't live long with what they were getting. ISA browns are the same as Golden Comets. Both are red sexlinks. Vitamins should never be provided via water long term. Even when provided, provide plain water on the side.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

So. Very little is known. Even what is known is no guarantee, just an expression of "more likely". Like smoking, no one can tell you which cigarette will give you cancer, or what kind, just that the more you smoke, and the longer you do it, the more likely you will get one (or more) of several kinds of cancer.

Corn, as you know, is a grossly deficient diet for a modern bird. How grossly deficient, you may be unaware. Feed figures given (subject to reasonable disagreement, and some crop variation) but dried corn around 9.5% protein, 2.5% fiber, and 4.3% fat. That's not nearly enough protein, low fiber, and on the high side of acceptable for fat content - more appropriate to raising market weight meaties than a production layer. Worse is the amino acid profile of what protein corn does have. It offers 2/3 of what they need (minimum) in Methionine, between 1/4th and 1/2 of what they need in Lysine, barely more than half the needed Threonine, and about 1/3 of the required Tryptophan. Every one of those deficiencies is most critical in the early weeks and months of their growth (Lysine, for instance, is often recommended at 1.1% in the first weeks of life, dropping to .65% once a layer goes into production. Corn offers .3%...)

Those sorts of early deficiencies (I can only assume the birds had some success free ranging or otherwise supplimenting their diet with uncertain sources) is associated with stunted growth, poorly developed bones, weak musculature and connective tissues. Likely an oversized liver and potential excesses offat around the organs.

Vitamin boosters, higher protein (18, 20% with a good amino acid profile) feed can mitigate some of those issues, but willnever fully correct them.

A further factor to consider? ISA Browns and Comets are both hybrid production layers - absolutely fantastic, among the very best, layers in their first year. Egg production drops off considerably in the second year, but may continue to exceed many other conventional breeds of "dual purpose" birds like the Wyandottes. By year three, however (and a further reduction in laying), all that rapid, early production of relatively large eggs as compared to body weight starts to show the toll its taken on a body. Reproductive problems, frewquently severe, often fatal, begin to crop up with increased frequency in those birds. Its why commercial producers usually "repurpose" hybrid layers likethose between 18 and 20-some months as they go into their first major adult molt. They become dog feed, chicken by product meal, soup/stew stock, etc....

I wish you every fortune, but the long term prognosis is not good. Plan on bringing in additional hens with your Roo.

Your Wyandotte will never reach their true potential, but have a much better long term prognosis, and might bring you years of happiness, even though they will never be great layers - that's just not part of the breed profile.

 

[MadGardener]

I feed Flock raiser 20% protein. Its basically feed for chicks, hens, pullets, and males. Doesn't matter. I have a mixed flock, so this is what works best. I provide ouster shells like said above. When I have time, I also bake and crush their egg shells for them, which they seems to prefer.

I do not feed treats often. Glad you took in these birds, because they wouldn't live long with what they were getting. ISA browns are the same as Golden Comets. Both are red sexlinks. Vitamins should never be provided via water long term. Even when provided, provide plain water on the side.

I wanted to change to an all flock type feed, but my store only had feed labeled for layer and chicks. I'll take a closer look at percentages next time since I've been waiting for signs of molting.

Since the vitamins seemed to help, would once a week be a suitable schedule?

I'm happy I can let them be chickens. They were so pitiful cooped up all the time. I have been giving them crushed egg shell about once a week with a few Tbsp sourdough discard. They love it, and I figure the microbes are a nice bonus.

 

[MadGardener]

Those sorts of early deficiencies (I can only assume the birds had some success free ranging or otherwise supplimenting their diet with uncertain sources) is associated with stunted growth, poorly developed bones, weak musculature and connective tissues. Likely an oversized liver and potential excesses offat around the organs.

Vitamin boosters, higher protein (18, 20% with a good amino acid profile) feed can mitigate some of those issues, but willnever fully correct them.

A further factor to consider? ISA Browns and Comets are both hybrid production layers - absolutely fantastic, among the very best, layers in their first year. Egg production drops off considerably in the second year, but may continue to exceed many other conventional breeds of "dual purpose" birds like the Wyandottes. By year three, however (and a further reduction in laying), all that rapid, early production of relatively large eggs as compared to body weight starts to show the toll its taken on a body. Reproductive problems, frewquently severe, often fatal, begin to crop up with increased frequency in those birds. Its why commercial producers usually "repurpose" hybrid layers likethose between 18 and 20-some months as they go into their first major adult molt. They become dog feed, chicken by product meal, soup/stew stock, etc....

I wish you every fortune, but the long term prognosis is not good. Plan on bringing in additional hens with your Roo.

Your Wyandotte will never reach their true potential, but have a much better long term prognosis, and might bring you years of happiness, even though they will never be great layers - that's just not part of the breed profile.

That's an in-depth overview of corn! Thank you.

I can't be sure that the younger chickens were fed corn from the start, there were a couple empty chick feed bags in the feed barrel I inherited. The Wyandottes are definitely better developed, more muscular, with better feather quality. Albeit some of that is down to breed and age.

I'd rather have dual purpose chickens in the long run. I was planning to harvest some birds this winter, but leaving a couple of the hybrid layers in the hope of disrupting the pecking order a little less.

The chickens aren't what I would have chosen, but getting all of their gear for basically nothing gave me a much earlier start. Plus it's satisfying that I can give them a better life than they had.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Chick Starter and All Flock type feeds often have very similar nutritional profiles - and particularl with pandemic related scarcities, we've all gotten better at checking labels to support necessary substitutions. Crushed egg shells are fine - its a good calcium source, and like oyster shell, they generally won't eat it if they don't need it.

Sourdough starter should be offered in tiny amounts, and infrequently. While its got some small amounts of good stuff in it, its nutrition is highly variable and much debated - hard to sort fact from fiction, best to minimize.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I'd rather have dual purpose chickens in the long run. I was planning to harvest some birds this winter, but leaving a couple of the hybrid layers in the hope of disrupting the pecking order a little less.

The chickens aren't what I would have chosen, but getting all of their gear for basically nothing gave me a much earlier start. Plus it's satisfying that I can give them a better life than they had.

I too started with different chickens than I would have picked in different circumstances. I now have a project going on, and I'm learning as I go. BYC has been a huge help to me, I hope you find it equally supportive.

This forum has some excellent people on poultry diseases, injuries, etc. Eggcessive and Wyorp Rock are often donating their time, expertise, experience to help out on those subjects, others with less time, but similar expertise. People great on genetics, breed identification (whose names you don't likely need right now). People who know a lot about building coops, chicken behaviors, etc (that list is really really lengthy, I owe them a lot). People who know a good bit about feed and methods. Usually some overlap. I've sort of recently fallen into the role of commenting on feed, using what I've learned from others, my own research, and math - which I'm decent at - and others have been kind enough to let me.

 

[Sally PB]

@MadGardener, welcome to BYC!

As @U_Stormcrow said, the knowledge pool here is wide and deep. If you have a question -- any question -- please ask. We were all new at this at one point.

I'm glad you put your location in your profile. Climate matters, a lot. What works from me in Michigan is not necessarily what works well for you in WV.

There are also a lot of gardeners and bakers here, so if you enjoy either of those pursuits, there are threads about those topics too.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/what-did-you-do-in-the-garden-today.670277/page-3869

https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/any-home-bakers-here.921333/page-4406

Glad you're here!

 

[Lazy J Farms Feed & Hay]

.....Feed figures given (subject to reasonable disagreement, and some crop variation) but dried corn around 9.5% protein, 2.5% fiber, and 4.3% fat. ...

Actually you are giving corn much more credit for crude protein content than is actually there. In the formulations I use my corn has a crude protein of 6.85%. The modern breeding programs are based upon increasing yield which comes at the expense of crude protein in preference for starch.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Actually you are giving corn much more credit for crude protein content than is actually there. In the formulations I use my corn has a crude protein of 6.85%. The modern breeding programs are based upon increasing yield which comes at the expense of crude protein in preference for starch.

and thus "Feed figures given (subject to reasonable disagreement, and some crop variation)..." I use Feedipedia.org as a source for nutrtion information, not because its necessarily the best, or most accurate (though it is periodically updated), but because its extensive - so I'm not cherry picking data (consciously or otherwise) in support of a particular outcome. Also, unlike many common sources, it has the amino acvid profiles for much of its offerings.

Still, variations are why I don't try to target the minimums, too much potential variation in crops due to variety, region/location, time of year, climate variations, etc. But certainly, where a guaranteed nutritional analysis is available, that trumps the reported "typical". In the case of maize grains, after about a 100 samples, they report corn's protein as averaging 9.5%, with a range of 8.2% to 11.5% - but as you can see from the various charts, numbers are different for European Corn, African Corn (sub saharan), North Africa and Middle Eastern Corn, etc.

Once it was established as clearly deficient, I didn't see the need to go further.

Still, I appreciate the feedback, and will be more direct in caveats in the future, particularly where the final feed formulation is borderline and corn a large component of the mix.