FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[sc000000bysnack]

No one? Okay...I'll start...

This will not be the first time I've fed fermented feeds to my chickens...just the first time I fermented their grain-based feeds. In the past I've always kept unpasteurized ACV(with the mother intact) in their water and have also fed them fermented pumpkins in late winter/early spring.

This year, though, I happened to become curious about the health benefits of feeding them to the meaties in order to get more bang for my buck and also to keep them from having the smelly, diarrhea poops that are characteristic for these birds.

Here are some of the articles I found that were helpful...it is a lot of information through which to sift, but there are gold nuggets in that thar stream...

http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ajb/article/viewFile/60378/48610

http://www.pjbs.org/ijps/fin640.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19373724

Last but not least...ACV info~interesting stuff if you take it further and research the benefits of the bacteria therein:

http://silvalab.fsnhp.msstate.edu//vinegar_lactic.pdf

Of course, I knew little of fermenting grains, so I just had to start it somewhere....and it turned out much easier than I suspected. I haven't been doing it long enough and on enough birds to give good, solid results and I'm hoping to hear from others who can but I can tell you what I have seen thus far.

Anyone doing it? That would be me!

How long have you been doing it? For some time but this is the first time doing it with the base feed ration of grains.

Your methods? Right now I'm just using non-medicated chick starter for 54 meaties and one young WR roo. My methods consist of two 5 gal. buckets sitting one within the other. The top bucket has small holes drilled in the bottom and sides to form a sieve(this will come in handy later when I ferment whole grains and want to drain off the fermented water).

Add chick starter, water, a glug or two of the UP/ACV for a starter culture and stir. Wait until the next day and stir some more, try to keep the whole mix moist to promote the fermentation process. You ought to smell a slight sour smell and see bubbles rising in the mash...when you smell and see this, you have active fermentation going on.

If you don't have anything to jump start this mix, as long as you keep it at room temp and let the air into it, it should form it's own cultures within 24 hours and they will grow stronger the longer they are allowed to "cook" or "work"...think sourdough bread starter when you picture what it looks and smells like.

I don't empty the water off this mix and the water lying in the bottom of the bucket sieve system is holding all the strong cultured growth of good bacteria, so when I add water it mixes with it and rises up past the grain in the top bucket to saturate the whole mix. This reusing the cultures from the old water is called back-slopping and it will make your fermentation quicker and stronger and also give you a heavier growth of good bacteria.

I also give UP/ACV in all their water.


Grains/feeds used in this manner? Right now, the chick starter, but when it is done(#50 bag), I'll switch to cracked corn, barley and wheat grains. I'll venture to say they will probably have to ferment a little longer then the fine starter crumbles.

Your overall review of this method of feeding? So far, I find it easy to do, a little messier than regular feeding when dealing with chicks and chick-height feeders but will soon be able to use it in feeders that can be elevated and not trampled in.

I also am very pleased to see that my CX chicks have perfect little formed poops instead of their usual yellow, frothy, stinky squirts so typical of the breed. Their brooder has no bad smells, the chicks are eating the feed well and are growing quickly. They don't seem to need to drink as often as when they first arrived and I attribute this to two reasons: 1. They are being fed moist feed. 2. They are not dehydrated by having liquid~ and frequent~ poops.

The WR roo was a gift and arrived a few days ago..he is probably 5 mo. old. He seemed reluctant to eat the mix and acted like he was eating poop or something the first few times he ate it.

Now he seems to have developed quite a taste for it and is cleaning his plate well! His feces have improved in color, texture and odor also since he first arrived.

Only time will tell how this feeding method pans out but I'm willing to try it and see. I am doing this to improve bird health and performance and to gain more feed efficacy, thus spending less money on feed costs.

This was really informative. Thank you!

 

[lazy gardener]

I have a question for those of you who ferment in large buckets. What do you use to stir with? I'm thinking it needs to be long enough to reach the bottom, and strong enough if the mixture gets on the thick side.

And while we're on the subject of stirring, do you wash or rinse your stirrer each time? Where do you keep it?

One, no, two more- What do you use to ladle it out to the feed dishes? Do you take the bucket of feed out to the yard to fill dishes/troughs, or gather all the feeders in to where the bucket is and then distribute full dishes?

I started A ferment last night for the first time, and all these logistical questions keep arising that I don't remember reading any posts about. Thanks!

Basically, you do what works best for you. I found a huge, very sturdy plastic soup ladle at Salvation Army that is long enough that the handle doesn't get buried completely in a 5 G bucket. I leave my plastic ladles/spoons right in the buckets most of the time. I try to have my ferment thick enough that what ever I use to stir it with will also be used to ladle it out. I am fond of fermenting in multiple 3 G buckets b/c they are easier to carry. I carry the buckets to the feeders.

For feeders, I use a combination of: gutter feeders (made those a month ago, and really like them.) Dog food bowls. (the cheap ones break down in sunlight) I have a nice heavy one that is about 10 years old, showing no signs of wear. And plastic chip and dip containers. They look like a sombrero with the middle of the crown punched in. No matter what type of feed you are giving, it helps if you can keep the feeder at the height of their back to keep the feed cleaner. Or, you can simply toss a scoop of feed right on the grass.

Many folks ferment by their feeding stations, which saves a lot of lugging. But, I don't b/c of concern that it may attract more varmints. I also prefer using fresh tap water instead of hose water, which is really foolish, b/c I fill my waterers from the hose. (all 200' of it!)

No matter where or how you ferment, be kind to your body. I like to keep a wheel barrow handy, and if I happen to be lugging more than 3 G at a time, I use the wheel barrow.

You are probably well aware, but I will repeat it for those who may not know this: Ferment is very corrosive to metal, and when in contact with it, will leach the metal into the feed. While some folks use stainless steel to stir their ferment, I won't do so, b/c I know that I will not take the time to thoroughly wash that stirrer after every use.

 

[Molpet]

I have a question for those of you who ferment in large buckets. What do you use to stir with? I'm thinking it needs to be long enough to reach the bottom, and strong enough if the mixture gets on the thick side.

And while we're on the subject of stirring, do you wash or rinse your stirrer each time? Where do you keep it?

One, no, two more- What do you use to ladle it out to the feed dishes? Do you take the bucket of feed out to the yard to fill dishes/troughs, or gather all the feeders in to where the bucket is and then distribute full dishes?

I started A ferment last night for the first time, and all these logistical questions keep arising that I don't remember reading any posts about. Thanks!

Well I use an old extra large food service SS spoons that is high grade SS, yes one is not supposed to use metal w/FF but this one is showing no sign of etching/leaching... I have a slotted for stirring and a solid for serving. I take a serving in a 8 qt bucket for grower and a bucket of layer out to the birds...I rinse and leave by the 20 qt ff buckets in the basement.. some people mix with a drill and a paint stirrer.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I have a question for those of you who ferment in large buckets. What do you use to stir with? I'm thinking it needs to be long enough to reach the bottom, and strong enough if the mixture gets on the thick side.

And while we're on the subject of stirring, do you wash or rinse your stirrer each time? Where do you keep it?

One, no, two more- What do you use to ladle it out to the feed dishes? Do you take the bucket of feed out to the yard to fill dishes/troughs, or gather all the feeders in to where the bucket is and then distribute full dishes?

I started A ferment last night for the first time, and all these logistical questions keep arising that I don't remember reading any posts about. Thanks!

I ferment 50# at a time in an 18 gallon Rubbermaid tote. I stir with a lightweight oar made for kayaking. The handle might be aluminum (but it doesn't usually get that deep) and the paddle part is plastic. It works great and it's strong! I never wash it, just tap off the extra feed. And I used to use a "top ramen" pan for scooping. But I bought the 3 quart plastic feed scoop they sell at the feed stores and it works pretty well for my purpose. I keep both sitting next to the bucket and the chooks clean any bits off. The lid does not fit tight on those totes so I leave it, lid on, in my run next to my trough and just scoop. Note, I am often feeding 50+ chickens and where you keep your FF may have to vary with your weather.

was $4 at LFS compared to $11 on Amazon!

 

[Finnie]

Awesome information, guys! Just what I was looking for, different methods people have figured out that work well in different situations. It gives me some inspiration about what to try as I continue with this.

The lid does not fit tight on those totes so I leave it, lid on, in my run next to my trough and just scoop.

When we get our new run done, we are intending to make part of it covered. Maybe this will be an option for me then. Right now I chose the half bath in our mudroom because it's kind of a catch-all space and it's close to the garage where all my other chicken supplies are stored, and chicks are brooded. I might move it to the garage, but I'm kind of concerned about the huge volume of dust and dirt that accumulate in there. Maybe that doesn't matter.

And I think I will look into 3 gallon buckets instead of the 5. Not only will that be lighter to carry, but I shouldn't need so long of a stirrer. I did wonder if it was ok to just leave the stirrer in the feed. Looks like that's a yes, as long as it's not metal.

As for gutter troughs, I have read pros and cons on those. The con that sticks in my mind was someone said the edges were too sharp on theirs. Do gutters come in different materials that would make some sharper than others? Are they prone to tipping over?

 

[lazy gardener]

Awesome information, guys! Just what I was looking for, different methods people have figured out that work well in different situations. It gives me some inspiration about what to try as I continue with this.

When we get our new run done, we are intending to make part of it covered. Maybe this will be an option for me then. Right now I chose the half bath in our mudroom because it's kind of a catch-all space and it's close to the garage where all my other chicken supplies are stored, and chicks are brooded. I might move it to the garage, but I'm kind of concerned about the huge volume of dust and dirt that accumulate in there. Maybe that doesn't matter.

And I think I will look into 3 gallon buckets instead of the 5. Not only will that be lighter to carry, but I shouldn't need so long of a stirrer. I did wonder if it was ok to just leave the stirrer in the feed. Looks like that's a yes, as long as it's not metal.

As for gutter troughs, I have read pros and cons on those. The con that sticks in my mind was someone said the edges were too sharp on theirs. Do gutters come in different materials that would make some sharper than others? Are they prone to tipping over?

Dust + dirt = more air born microbes/yeast to feed the ferment. That's a + IMO.

You can get free buckets, 3 G and 5 G at the bakery department of your local grocer.

I used plain plastic gutter from Lowes. Not too sharp at all. You can buy end caps for it. I had done that, but did not have much luck getting them to stay put. I tried silicone. So, in my next attempt, I used the chop saw to cut end panels out of lumber (I forget what dimension of lumber I used) to fit the contours of the end of the gutter. Then, screwed those in place. I had some threaded dowels from an old children's bin toy storage system that worked perfect to make a wobbly perch that would spin when ever a bird tried to perch on it. The dowel also makes a handy carrying handle... if you don't mind getting your hands dirty. On the bottom, I simply screwed a 12" length of 2 x 4 to each end to give it a stable surface. Some folks simply stand some cinder blocks on end, and stick a gutter between the blocks. No fabrication required.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Some of my gutters hang. Others sit on cynder blocks. Never had it tip but don't prefer the cinder blocks. If I stand them up and slide the trough between, the area under the cinder block top never gets touched so I have to scrape it over to the rest of the trough. Or extra liquid drains into that area. Either way, a place for funk to happen. If I put the cynder blocks on the side and lay the trough on top (has little dips kind so the trough sits right in), some bits of feed make it into the square holes and before long funky stuff is growing in the square holes on the ground and I have to move it around to avoid that. With the haning one I just raise it with S hooks at the end of the day to avoid rodents. My cynder block ones I set a 2x4 across the top. Even though I try to feed only what they will eat, specks or film left behind is more than what I want left available for the local wildlife.

Gutters do come in different materials... plastic and metal. It will be important to get plastic... allthough the metal is probably powder coated with paint to stop corrosion, seems like it could chip off in the long run. Aside from that they have different plastic ones available and what's sold at HD verses Lowes verses Orchard Supply or ACE. So shopping around and see which one seems best. Internet is great for comparing things like thickness/weight/cost. Seeing them in person might make it more obvious which has the best shape. Keep it simple is always a good suggestion... My gutters were old off my house and ends were missing and no longer available... so the ends of my gutters are duct taped!

True, so many differing ways and situations... the only right way is what works for you! And we are all here to share what does or doesn't work for us.

 

[Molpet]

Awesome information, guys! Just what I was looking for, different methods people have figured out that work well in different situations. It gives me some inspiration about what to try as I continue with this.

When we get our new run done, we are intending to make part of it covered. Maybe this will be an option for me then. Right now I chose the half bath in our mudroom because it's kind of a catch-all space and it's close to the garage where all my other chicken supplies are stored, and chicks are brooded. I might move it to the garage, but I'm kind of concerned about the huge volume of dust and dirt that accumulate in there. Maybe that doesn't matter.

And I think I will look into 3 gallon buckets instead of the 5. Not only will that be lighter to carry, but I shouldn't need so long of a stirrer. I did wonder if it was ok to just leave the stirrer in the feed. Looks like that's a yes, as long as it's not metal.

As for gutter troughs, I have read pros and cons on those. The con that sticks in my mind was someone said the edges were too sharp on theirs. Do gutters come in different materials that would make some sharper than others? Are they prone to tipping over?

my FF buckets are right next to the stock tank w/14 chicks.. and you know how dusty they are... I have gutters that came off the house, they had two 2x4 at 90` as feet, but the jakes fighting tore off the 2x4.... so they just lay on the ground and get flipped.. also have the small blk feed bowls that get flipped.. and a old goat feeder that hangs inside the cattle panel hoop coop

 

[mobius]

SO many different ways. I have six chix. Like lazy gardener, I leave the spoons in and use the spoons to feed out. Since the flock is so small, I can use half gallon glass jars which have a place on the kitchen counter near the sink. Stick a wooden spoon in, and it stays there. Old nylon stocking to cover. Fill it up every three days or so.

Feed out with the spoon on the ground...four heaping spoonfuls. That way they get grit and there is no cleanup. And their FF is separated (all over the place) so no arguing. And like others, I leave a full 4 gallon bucket in the coop with dry feed. But I only fill that every 2-3 months. It is just backup.

They also get daily: fermented alfalfa, barley fodder in the evening and now we have salad bars with clover and barley seed. I think I might be done here with the feeding program (!) with the exception of planting some chicken friendly plants outside the larger run for them to nibble.

I think it would be great if everyone continued sharing their plan for their flock because flock size and climate varies so much!

 

[Finnie]

I have thought about just feeding it on the ground. After thinking about gutters for troughs yesterday, I was looking around to think where I would place them. My covered areas aren't big enough, I don't think. Not if everyone is eating at the same time. So that leaves out in the open, rain or shine. That's not a problem with my 5 gallon bucket feeders with the pvc elbow ports. The rain only rarely makes any wet clumps in those.

Not sure what I will do on rainy days. Normally in the rain they just huddle under covered areas until the rain lets up, and then come out to eat. By then it seems like the FF would either be washed away or very soupy. Or do you just delay breakfast until after the rain? That might not work out for those of you on a set schedule.

Yes, it's nice reading all the many variations people have with their methods and flock sizes.

I should add, I have about 50 right now, I think, not counting brooders and grow out areas.