FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[tigger19687]

Is the feed from the same bag? Could be a couple things, new bag has more larger pieces, they are digesting faster? Or since the poo is more smushy you notice it more?

My guys attack it more when I feed them later, like this morning at 8:30am . But I did notice they they fling their heads more when eating. They don't like too much mash on their beaks. Sometimes leaving the bowl to 'wipe' off their beaks, then go back for more. I wondered why there was so much Splatter on the inside of the bowl.
Maybe I just have messy eaters

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Anyone know about FF for emu??

I've got emu eggs busily incubating and I wondered about FF.

My concern is in that I read one study that showed the growth rates of chickens up to 3 and 6 weeks were reduced by 44% and 12% respectively when raised on fermented feeds.

After that however the FF group grew faster and better.

I think it had something to do with the increased bulk of the feed ... the FF group got 'less' dry weight because of the expansion. This would logically effect a fast growing baby bird more than an adult with a larger crop capacity.

So I'm wondering, as Emu vs FF is sort of an unknown, should I 'risk' my $30-40 each Emu hatchlings (Due in 10 days!) with a FF trial?

I would love them to have the probiotic benefit from day one! But, if I did try it, I think I would be looking at starting with a lower percentage of FF mixed in with dry ... just to make sure it won't upset their digestion ... what do you think?

On the other hand, if Emu chicks grow too fast they get twisted legs ... they start them on very low protein and ration their dry feed for the first few weeks to keep them growing slow enough.

Also they naturally eat 'FF' of a sort, ie they pick whole grains out of their own poop and re-digest them ... maybe I could save them the, er, trouble!?

Please share a link to the study you saw?

Seems to me FF might be the perfect solution to the growing to fast thing, instead of the whole restrict diet thing to prevent too rapid of growth. When I had a large breed dog, vet also told me lower protein feed was preferred to inhibit rapid growth that would cause problems later in life.

MANY feeds do have probiotic formulas already in them, like Purina flock raiser. Many that don't advertise it still have it. If it's JUST the probiotics you are after, you could always do raw, unfilter ACV with mother in their water.

Even though I believe FF benefits ARE real... it's unfortunate that it tricks many of us into somehow believing that the prepared formulas aren't good enough for our birds. And if we give dry they are somehow doing with out, they AREN'T! They ARE formulated to meet ALL the needs of the fowl in captivity, assuming you buy the correct formulation for the species you are raising.

I do suspect your slightly runnier droppings to be related to the higher concentration of water in the diet. I would expect it to continue to level out over the next couple weeks as the feed change continues to take full effect. But like you say, runny is usually bad... good to keep an eye on things!

Like another poster mentioned, I would wonder if the bits you are seeing is just because the other stuff is more digested therefor making it easier to see what you currently are?

I think FF causes burbs... but I DON'T think it upsets the digestive system. Yes, them are some pricey eggs your incubating. Totally a personal choice. Getting chicks to eat FF has NEVER been super easy for me. The ducks never thought twice before inhaling it. Don't know how an emu will react. If mixing it with dry makes you more comfortable, then by all means DO it. Standard fresh INCUBATOR hatched chicks will ALWAYS go for dry and ignore the FF if given the choice, in MY experience. Like they don't recognize it as food. So it usually takes some tid bitting and encouragement/effort on my part to get them eating it... yes, stressed the whole time like they are gonna pass from nutritional deficiency from not eating the HIGHEST quality nutrients possible. For those with broody mamas, they start just fine on it. Personal choice really, just don't beat yourself up about it whatever you choose.

And thanks for continuing to share your experiences!

I'm still not sure if having my ducks on FF is the right thing... they waste plenty of it slinging it everywhere, every time they shake their head. It was even higher than my head on the wall in my run! And still lose plenty into the water dish. So I'm not sure for ducks how the savings will add up or not. But they seem to enjoy eating it and appear to be thriving at almost 7 weeks with NOTHING but FF and pasture. Since my flock is so variable with ages right now, I have no real numbers on duck FF consumption verses dry. And no previous experience with duck poo consistency/smell! Kind of wish I did know the difference specifically for the ducks.

Keep us updated!

 

[lazy gardener]

Interesting to hear other folks experiences. I've found that my bird's poo is dryer, better formed, not as smelly when on FF. Wondering if my ferment is dryer than that of PP who noted runnier poos. I would also like to see the study that noted slower growth. That study should show the nutritional analysis of the feed which was fermented.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Interesting to hear other folks experiences. I've found that my bird's poo is dryer, better formed, not as smelly when on FF. Wondering if my ferment is dryer than that of PP who noted runnier poos. I would also like to see the study that noted slower growth. That study should show the nutritional analysis of the feed which was fermented.

The thickness of my FF varies every time.

I just knew having a lot of extra water like when they drinking a lot in hot weather can make for more watery poos, So I thought maybe partly because they were still in the adjustment phase for EB21... hah, got you first name shortening!

 

[Leigti]

I would think that slower growth is actually a good thing. Even with meat birds.

 

[paneubert]

I did a search on this thread and I did not see where the following was ever discussed.

Has anyone used properly diluted Electrolyte and Vitamin mix (for example, Durvet, or "Sav-A-Chick") for the water component of their fermented feed? Seems like it would kill two birds with one stone (hahaha, I just realized this might not be the best turn of phrase to use!) when it comes to delivering a boost to new or sick birds. I am sure some of the potency wears off or maybe is even impacted by the fermentation. I am just thinking that I have this packet of Durvet that dillutes to about 100 gallons and I am never going to use that much in my life. Hahaha.

 

[Ebarnes-21]

Is the feed from the same bag? Could be a couple things, new bag has more larger pieces, they are digesting faster? Or since the poo is more smushy you notice it more?

Actually there is a new bag ... but since both bags are whole grains, not ground at all, I'm having a little difficulty seeing "Larger Pieces" ... but you have a good point with the new bag certainly. That could definitely have a bearing on it.

Please share a link to the study you saw?

I would also like to see the study that noted slower growth. That study should show the nutritional analysis of the feed which was fermented.

I've only read the abstract of the study so far, I only just got the full text link now. The site I found it on wanted to charge me $30+ for it, but ResearchGate comes to the rescue ... https://www.researchgate.net/public...bacteria_and_gut_histo-morphology_in_broilers

I quote: "Daily feed intake and gain were reduced considerably in the FMF (fermented moist feed) group in the starter (-40 and -44%, respectively) and grower (-23 and -16%) period, though in the finisher period these birds performed better, with an improved feed utilisation."

I made an error on the 12, it was 16% as you see.

The interesting thing to me is that the figures initially (40% less feed intake, 44% less weight gain) show a close but slightly negative feed efficiency in the FF. However by the time they get to "Grower" size at 2 weeks, although the growth is still slow(ish), the reduction in feed intake is now significantly outweighing the reduction in weight gain. That means increased feed efficiency, although they are still being picky tastewise. Then by the "Finisher" period (around a month old) they simply say that they were better, which says a lot in itself.

This shows a clear swing ... very young chicks are a) not eating as much FF, b) not utilizing it as well (by 4%, not a big deal) ... but very soon they begin to utilise it much better, and catch up.

Seems to me FF might be the perfect solution to the growing to fast thing, instead of the whole restrict diet thing to prevent too rapid of growth. When I had a large breed dog, vet also told me lower protein feed was preferred to inhibit rapid growth that would cause problems later in life.

MANY feeds do have probiotic formulas already in them, like Purina flock raiser. Many that don't advertise it still have it. If it's JUST the probiotics you are after, you could always do raw, unfilter ACV with mother in their water.

Even though I believe FF benefits ARE real... it's unfortunate that it tricks many of us into somehow believing that the prepared formulas aren't good enough for our birds. And if we give dry they are somehow doing with out, they AREN'T! They ARE formulated to meet ALL the needs of the fowl in captivity, assuming you buy the correct formulation for the species you are raising.

I do suspect your slightly runnier droppings to be related to the higher concentration of water in the diet. I would expect it to continue to level out over the next couple weeks as the feed change continues to take full effect. But like you say, runny is usually bad... good to keep an eye on things!

Like another poster mentioned, I would wonder if the bits you are seeing is just because the other stuff is more digested therefor making it easier to see what you currently are?

I think FF causes burbs... but I DON'T think it upsets the digestive system. Yes, them are some pricey eggs your incubating. Totally a personal choice. Getting chicks to eat FF has NEVER been super easy for me. The ducks never thought twice before inhaling it. Don't know how an emu will react. If mixing it with dry makes you more comfortable, then by all means DO it. Standard fresh INCUBATOR hatched chicks will ALWAYS go for dry and ignore the FF if given the choice, in MY experience. Like they don't recognize it as food. So it usually takes some tid bitting and encouragement/effort on my part to get them eating it... yes, stressed the whole time like they are gonna pass from nutritional deficiency from not eating the HIGHEST quality nutrients possible. For those with broody mamas, they start just fine on it. Personal choice really, just don't beat yourself up about it whatever you choose.

And thanks for continuing to share your experiences!

I'm still not sure if having my ducks on FF is the right thing... they waste plenty of it slinging it everywhere, every time they shake their head. It was even higher than my head on the wall in my run! And still lose plenty into the water dish. So I'm not sure for ducks how the savings will add up or not. But they seem to enjoy eating it and appear to be thriving at almost 7 weeks with NOTHING but FF and pasture. Since my flock is so variable with ages right now, I have no real numbers on duck FF consumption verses dry. And no previous experience with duck poo consistency/smell! Kind of wish I did know the difference specifically for the ducks.

Keep us updated!

The thickness of my FF varies every time.

I just knew having a lot of extra water like when they drinking a lot in hot weather can make for more watery poos, So I thought maybe partly because they were still in the adjustment phase for EB21... hah, got you first name shortening!

I think we are all thinking similarly on the lines of the fermented feed being a good solution to that fast growth. It makes sense to me ... although I may still start them with a mix, maybe 50/50, now simply because they say that teaching young Emu chicks to eat in time can be a bit hard anyway.

Its not just the probiotic ... obviously there are many potential benefits for them ... but I just had that thought, that giving them a probiotic feed for the very first might be a lot like getting colostrum to a young mammal. That could be the greatest benefit to them ... set them up for life as it were.

Yes it could definitely be an added water consumption in the adjustment phase ... that happens with ruminants (and people) when changed to a wetter diet. In that case it should disappear as they adapt to it.

The bits ... I don't think they could have been there before ... it was all pretty finely digested. But, a) it could be the new bag thing (maybe its harder corn?), or b), I'm watching in my minds eye here, if you can with me ... first take a whole, dry kernel of corn and crush it ... It powders quite finely, it is brittle and the whole lot cracks up ... now take a soaked kernel and crush it ... it squashes, the softened insides mash up more leaving a husk in larger pieces. Could that be what is happening, the husks only of the wet grains being less broken up?

 

[Ebarnes-21]

Does anyone know where I can find a study or something to say what the analysis of FF vs non-fermented is??
Particularly fermented grains, wheat and corn.
I can find generalities "More protein" "less carbohydrate" "Increased vitamin B" etc ... but I'm looking for figures, even in a general range would help!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Does anyone know where I can find a study or something to say what the analysis of FF vs non-fermented is??
Particularly fermented grains, wheat and corn.
I can find generalities "More protein" "less carbohydrate" "Increased vitamin B" etc ... but I'm looking for figures, even in a general range would help!

Seems like I've seen something, I will try to find it.

 

[lazy gardener]

An other quote from Tikki Jane's article:

Quote:
Bacterial fermentation produces lysine, often increasing its concentration by many fold and making grains nearly a “complete protein”, i.e. one that contains the ideal balance of essential amino acids as do animal proteins (11, scroll down to see graph). Not very many plant foods can make that claim. Fermentation also increases the concentration of the amino acid methionine and certain vitamins.