Fermenting Feed for Meat Birds

[ChocolateMouse]

TW, I would NEVER let an animal go to waste like that. I think it's disrespectful to a utility animal to not try to make it's death as useful as possible. What's the point of dying if nothing good comes of it? I give everything I can a second life either in my freezer or in the bellies of my critters. Even stillborn day-old rabbit kits find a use as my chickens get extra protein from them.

Someday, when I die, I hope they chop me up and feed me to tigers or bears or something.

 

[Brada Puhi]

Aloha kakou,

This is a question out to the people who are NPIP certified. I am not sure what the plan entails but if it's government run, I assume that it involves the heavy use of antibiotics. But I also assume that all of us fermenters are anti-antibiotics. So I was just wondering how the two jive together, or perhaps they do not need to be mutually exclusive.

I don't think we have a NPIP program here, but I do want to keep my flock healthy WITHOUT the use of antibiotics.

A lot of people talk about FF as a way to save money but I look at it as a substitute for antibiotics.

Mahalo nui, Puhi

 

[perchie.girl]

Aloha kakou,

This is a question out to the people who are NPIP certified. I am not sure what the plan entails but if it's government run, I assume that it involves the heavy use of antibiotics. But I also assume that all of us fermenters are anti-antibiotics. So I was just wondering how the two jive together, or perhaps they do not need to be mutually exclusive.

I don't think we have a NPIP program here, but I do want to keep my flock healthy WITHOUT the use of antibiotics.

A lot of people talk about FF as a way to save money but I look at it as a substitute for antibiotics.

Mahalo nui, Puhi

Hi Brada ....

.... I have limited experience in that I have only read about getting NPIP certification...

NPIP just involves testing for certain disease and documenting the birds you have. Meaning leg or wing banding..... and that includes birds that are family pets....

I dont believe there are vaccination requirements only that your flock I mean your whole flock to be free of a list of testable diseases. Each state has its own requirements for how that documentation is done and I am Certain Hawaii is no exception.

edited to add: Its not required if you are only shipping and selling within your own state.... At least its that way in California.
deb

 

[ChocolateMouse]

Not sure about NPIP but...

Antibiotics treat specific things. FF is not a substitute for antibiotics any more than vitamin C is. Both boost the immune system and get the whole body functioning better so that it's natural defenses can fight back against disease and illness. Some things the body can't fight back against and that's when antibiotics are normally used. They're not mutually exclusive. You can be a very healthy individual and still get a condition that need antibiotics. It's just you need them less often.

I think in most back yard style chicken practices it's about keeping pathogen levels low enough by doing things like deep litter that you never have an issue so severe that a bird with a good immune system can't fight it off. And then the FF helps keep the bird's immune system healthy. But if you stuck a FF bird in a pathogen-heavy environment you'd still probably get a sick bird, and your options would be antibiotics or cull. Even Bee's birds could easily get sick in a commercial-type environment. So if you bird gets sick from a one-time incident (say, going to a county fair to be shown, for example) at that point it's up to you whether that bird is worth using antibiotics on or culling. If a bird is getting sick regularly then it's an issue of a weak immune system and that's not normally worth keeping around. But even strong immune systems can contract illness. So it's a two pronged effort; Low pathogen levels and strong immune systems.

At least that's how I see it.

 

[Triple Willow]

TW, I would NEVER let an animal go to waste like that. I think it's disrespectful to a utility animal to not try to make it's death as useful as possible. What's the point of dying if nothing good comes of it? I give everything I can a second life either in my freezer or in the bellies of my critters. Even stillborn day-old rabbit kits find a use as my chickens get extra protein from them.

Someday, when I die, I hope they chop me up and feed me to tigers or bears or something.

I agree except maybe the tiger and bear part. lol It doesn't really matter though because I'll be long gone on to the good life!

 

[Triple Willow]

Hi Brada  ....  ....  I have limited experience in that I have only read about getting NPIP certification...

NPIP just involves testing for certain disease and documenting the birds you have.  Meaning leg or wing banding.....  and that includes birds that are family pets....

I dont believe there are vaccination requirements only that your flock I mean your whole flock to be free of a list of testable diseases.  Each state has its own requirements for how that documentation is done and I am Certain Hawaii is no exception.

edited to add:  Its not required if you are only shipping and selling within your own state....  At least its that way in California.
deb

I don't know about anybody else but I don't want the government nosing around in what I have or don't have. They might decide to come get what I have to "spread the meat and eggs around". lol

 

[BCMaraniac]

I don't know about anybody else but I don't want the government nosing around in what I have or don't have. They might decide to come get what I have to "spread the meat and eggs around". lol

I am right there with you. There is actually a law that was passed during the Bush Administration that was buried deep in some piece of legislation that gives the government the right to forcibly take you stockpiles of food to feed others. Apparently they can take all but what they deem is two weeks worth of food that you can keep......but don't get me started on that.....LOL

 

[Triple Willow]

I am right there with you.  There is actually a law that was passed during the Bush Administration that was buried deep in some piece of legislation that gives the government the right to forcibly take you stockpiles of food to feed others.  Apparently they can take all but what they deem is two weeks worth of food that you can keep......but don't get me started on that.....LOL

Oh brother!!! Well that law needs to be done away with asap. This government is dang scary sometimes.

 

[Beekissed]

Not sure about NPIP but...

Antibiotics treat specific things. FF is not a substitute for antibiotics any more than vitamin C is. Both boost the immune system and get the whole body functioning better so that it's natural defenses can fight back against disease and illness. Some things the body can't fight back against and that's when antibiotics are normally used. They're not mutually exclusive. You can be a very healthy individual and still get a condition that need antibiotics. It's just you need them less often.

I think in most back yard style chicken practices it's about keeping pathogen levels low enough by doing things like deep litter that you never have an issue so severe that a bird with a good immune system can't fight it off. And then the FF helps keep the bird's immune system healthy. But if you stuck a FF bird in a pathogen-heavy environment you'd still probably get a sick bird, and your options would be antibiotics or cull. Even Bee's birds could easily get sick in a commercial-type environment. So if you bird gets sick from a one-time incident (say, going to a county fair to be shown, for example) at that point it's up to you whether that bird is worth using antibiotics on or culling. If a bird is getting sick regularly then it's an issue of a weak immune system and that's not normally worth keeping around. But even strong immune systems can contract illness. So it's a two pronged effort; Low pathogen levels and strong immune systems.

At least that's how I see it.

Vitamin C is thought to boost the immune system on a cellular level but has no way of killing or inhibiting pathogens, though it is thought to possibly to help the body fend off the effects of a bacterial onslaught in the system.

FF is a type of antibiotic but it works differently, being a prebiotic and probiotic, so they don't work by killing harmful bacteria but they do inhibit their growth patterns so that they stay in low enough numbers as to not effect the host.

An antibiotic, on the other hand, destroys bacteria to decrease their numbers...both provide the action of decreasing the numbers of the disease pathogen, one just does it quicker and is nonspecific, so it kills or decreases both the good and the bad pathogens. You can see where prebiotics and probiotics in FF and other fermented foods have the power to keep pathogens to a harmless level, whereas antibiotics lose their effectiveness if they are used prophylactic-ally and one has to keep switching antibiotic agents to get the same desired effect~so they are best used in a curative way.

The way prebiotics and probiotics decrease the number of harmful bacteria~but still do not remove them altogether~ is to colonize the walls of the intestines, thereby leaving no point of attachment for the harmful bacteria. They also emit chemicals, as a by-product of their metabolism, that inhibits the ability of the harmful bacteria to recreate or grow in numbers.

Antibiotic~ Antibiotics, also known as antibacterials, are types of medications that destroy or slow down the growth of bacteria. The Greek word anti means "against", and the Greek word bios means "life" (bacteria are life forms). When a person takes antibiotics, both the harmful bacteria and the beneficial bacteria are killed.

Prebiotics~ Prebiotics are non-digestible food ingredients that stimulate the growth and/or activity of bacteria in the digestive system.

Probiotics~ are live bacteria that may confer a health benefit on the host. Probiotics may beneficially affect the host by augmenting its intestinal microbial population beyond the amount already existing, thus possibly inhibiting pathogens. Lactic acid bacteria (LAB) and bifidobacteria are the most common types of microbes used as probiotics, but certain yeasts and bacilli may also be used. Probiotics are commonly consumed as part of fermented foods with specially added active live cultures, such as in yogurt, soy yogurt, or as dietary supplements. Probiotics are also delivered in fecal transplants, in which stool from a healthy donor is delivered like a suppository to an infected patient.

You can give antibiotics to animals for a specific purpose and it may or may not kill all bacteria causing the problem and it may kill even beneficial bacteria as well. That's when using FF or something similar comes in real handy, as the bad bacteria have a faster growth rate than do LAB and Acetobacter, so feeding a strong mix of both can really get those established in the bowels rather quickly after the use of an antibiotic. It also helps if the intestinal culture is of an acid nature as well, as this also inhibits the growth of the harmful pathogens.

 

[BCMaraniac]

Thanks guys. She did give me a nice 2.5lb carcass and I know that knowing my husky she went very fast. I have one little chick in my nest right now and three more that pipped. I just have to keep reminding myself that I can't peel them out like hardboiled eggs, I have to sit on my hands and wait for them to hatch. I gave mama some of the meaty's fermented feed, extra wet, so she can stay on the nest for longer without being dehydrated or anything... Since one of the chicks popped out soooo far in advance of the rest.

Still hoping for that coq au vin recipe. ;P Sincerely. I have heard such rave reviews and none of them post a recipe....

As for my eggs, TW, I feed some to my dogs, or back to my hens if I have too many. I sell some and use a lot. I know a lady that feeds them as the main protein source to her pigs!

Here is another recipe:

http://www.cuisine-france.com/recipes/coq_vin.htm

This one takes a couple of days, but from what I understand, the authentic recipes take that much time. I have to butcher a couple of roosters soon....blue copper marans, so I may get brave and try this recipe. Maybe both birds at the same time......I love leftovers.