finding a horse trainer

[arabianequine]

Quote:
I am not taking it the wrong way at all you are completely right. She is not the right match for me either but a little too late and I don't think I could ever get rid of her now. I do however want to be able to do the basics without getting on her at this point. She will be 3 1/2 spring of 2012. I addressed my weight in the other post I just wrote. I do know most arabs can't handle that weight although most people say I don't even look like I weigh that much but scale says different. Did you see that arab thread....I posted that guy looked huge on those arabs and I am no bigger then him. I think I am shorter for sure but does not mean it is right or he is doing it right either. Guts I would call it.

 

[welsummerchicks]

Quite true, you might have something to work toward that really inspires you - that has helped me to lose weight.

It would be good if you got help with your young horse. I think that if what you want is help grooming and handling, many trainers would be able to help you with that. I must warn you though, if your horse has gotten a little spoiled or naughty(it does sound like that a little bit), you really are going to have to grin and bear it when the trainer corrects some of those behaviors, because it's not going to be a 'now, now, Precious, don't be naughty'. The horse is going to know it did something wrong.

Please, don't hold it against the trainer or decide they need to be replaced. We loving horse owners often are a little appalled when 'a new sherrif is in town'. Much dealing with youngsters is not exactly all 'hearts and flowers'. Some sort of lost temper and senseless beating is not what I'm talking about tolerating. I mean a firm yank on the lead shank, being made to back up sharply, a loud 'NO', perhaps repeated, or even escalating to firmer versions, and repeated til it sinks in...things like that.

If your other trainer seemed rough, he may be dealing with the problem where the owner is a little timid and the horse gets a little naughty. Then the trainer winds up making up for that. It doesn't mean cruelty or brutality needs to be ignored - there is a balance between being firm and going overboard.

Youngsters sometimes need a lip shank or other restraints. Especially if handled by someone who is a little afraid of them, they can get a little chip on their shoulder.

Being 'different every day' is typical of most young horses. They will seem to tolerate something and the next day, the rider can find himself exasperated. I have a rule - I don't get upset about it or wonder about it, I just say what my old trainer said, 'It's being A HORSE'....LOL.

 

[Skittlez]

your filly needs to be trained. And you need lessons.. IT SHOULD NOT be on the same animal. You will confuse your filly,

I think having someone come and show someone how to handle their horse is a benefit for both the horse and the owner. Lessons don't necessarily mean riding only. Why would it confuse the filly? She is not ready to ride yet. I was under the immpression the op wanted more hands on with the training of her filly. How else is the op going to learn if nobody will show her how to do it with her horse? An instructor also teaches haltering, leading, grooming, lunging, etc. There is no reason why both can't learn at the same time. This gives the op the opportunity to learn her horses body language and her triggers. And an instuctor would be there to give her the proper guidance. Many trainers give the owners lessons so the owner can learn what is being taught to the horse. I wouldn't want to bring my horse home from a trainer and not know how it was taught. I would want to learn the same methods as the trainer so I could give the same cues and signals to my horse to continue the training the horse recieved from the trainer.

If people only took lessons on push button horses, how would they learn to apply it to their horse? All horses react differently. I took lessons with my horse, so did my daughter and my sister. We had great success. It may not be the norm, but it isn't a bad thing. I think the op is doing a good thing by wanting to be more involved. It shows she is truly wanting to learn and be able to apply that knowledge to her horse.

Arabianequine- I would concentrate on groundwork and manners at this point. It sounds like your filly is testing her boundries and groundwork is your friend. Good luck in your training.​

 

[arabianequine]

I have been thinking of getting one of those chains for over her nose....you think that is a good idea?

If not actually working with her when she is being nasty what should I do? Just walk away....at feeding time I usually do because I don't see a point in bothering I know she is hungry.

 

[welsummerchicks]

Someone would have to show you how and when to use a chain shank. If used incorrectly, it can create an awful, awful mess - even more rearing, running backwards.

Unlike many people, I could care less how an animal acts at feeding time, as far as when they are loose, what they do is their business if they are not touching me. I could care less what faces they make or if they lay their ears, as long as they don't land a bite or kick on me. They're allowed to have an opinion, as far as I'm concerned. Too, if I picked on the horse every time it moved its ears or made a face, it would be a nervous wreck, and just cause more stress, which is where the behavior usually comes from - stress related to management issues. I want to punish them only for important things, they will get plenty of corrections for just those major things when young.

If they are actually connecting - biting or kicking me, I have to punish them, but I'd take a serious look at how my facility is arranged - what about it is putting me in that position.

The minute they get to my place (or usually, if they've been trained at all, before they get to me), they are trained to go stand on the other side of the stall while I put feed in his bucket(or feed hay). They can stand over there and make a face and mutter to themselves all they want. A few careful flicks of the whip will get the horse 'aligned' on the wall. All young horses should be taught that, but if they're all loose outside, it's pretty impossible to train and control any of them.

Maybe you haven't done that, or maybe your setup at your farm encourages a lot of hysterics at feed time.

If you are having a problem with a youngster, don't get upset. Either your facility needs a little re-arranging or you haven't taught them something they need to know. Young horses are a 'blank slate', and they do what they are taught to do - for better or worse. We're constantly teaching horses each time we're around them, whether we intend it or not.

If you're walking into the stall afraid of them, hesitating, moving backward when they move toward you, they do what they would do in a herd, chase the 'little horse' (you) off from their food. That's just nature. Walk in, put them over on the wall(you can use a command right as you're coming in, and then flick the whip at shoulder and hip to align them on the wall, the command is usually 'get over', or 'stand up'), dump the feed, walk out. Act very confident, and your motions and hence 'body language' are very different. Move toward the horse, and get him to move away from you.

They usually have a fit if they have to compete for food - and later, have hysterics even in a stall because they've gotten in the habit of doing so...or because the stall is too open to other horses and they perceive a threat. The trick for me is not all about punishing them if they're getting nutty at feeding time, it's about arranging my facility so feeding time just is a quieter time...usually then one needs to do very little to be safe at feeding, just a wee bit of 'tweaking' is all that's needed.

Too, if fed only once a day, horses tend to get more antsy. Sinmply put, they're hungrier. Feeding small meals 3 or 4 times a day makes for more relaxed horses.

Having a visual barrier between horses(it can be as simple as a large piece of burlap), tieing them up far apart for feeding, or putting them in their stalls, makes feeding time a lot more peaceful. Walking around in a group of loose horses dumping feed on the ground is a really good way to get kicked or stepped on.

Of course, it's also entirely possible that due to overfeeding and underworking, the filly is restless and has too much energy. If she's not in a 'program' of being worked and handled five days a week and is getting a bunch of alfalfa, grain and supplements, she's going to be acting like a git. From your descriptions, you do nothing with her for long stretches of time, and then give her a lengthy session - one was four hours.

You're going to run into a lot of trouble trying to handle young horses that way. That kind of thing is pretty much doomed to fail. Trust me on this - I've done both and seen the difference.

Everything has to be about a routine. Every single day, you get your horse in the same way, take him to the same place in the barn, and do the same things, in order, work on the same things - every single time. The horse learns the routine and expects it and behaves well.

Being in a small pasture or paddock can also lead to restlessness and poor behavior. Many farms are too small for young horses, who need a place where they can run with other horses the same age, play-fight, and move around...not working, not something structured - just taking a rest and then playing when they feel the need to move.

Please...never work a 2 year old horse for four hours straight. Fifteen minutes should be the limit. You can take them out a couple times a day, but working them for four hours straight - ON ANYTHING - grooming, loading, leading - no. They're too mentally immature for that. It causes a lot of psychological stress and more poor behavior. 'Teach 'em and leave 'em alone'.

In other words, it isn't just about a trainer being there. A trainer comes say, once a week, or every two weeks, or once a month. You need to set aside time, every day, and follow that routine, and do - well, it really is a lot of work. With the trainer's guidance, you'll know more what to do - but making a well behaved young horse...it really is about the owner setting aside that time every day and doing a lot of work.

 

[patandchickens]

Quote:
YOung horse thing.

I tied her up about a month ago and she had not been tied in months and she was a complete angel for like 4 hours while we cleaned a stall in there with the tractor it was long over due.

I would suggest avoiding, if at all humanly possible, doin' stuff like that. First because it is pushing your luck; and second because it does not give her a good feeling about going and doing things you want her to. ("Man, I stood there and stood there, and she just left me to stand there *more*!") You can do that kind of thing with horses that are USED to it, but with youngsters with whom you do not have a great relationship to begin with, it is kind of anti-helpful.

She does this snake thing with her neck and head when I think she is agitated. People have seen her do it and can't believe she does it and does not know why and they have horses.

Gee, that's really not uncommon at all IME as a way for horses to express snarkiness or frustration, especially in horses with Arab blood. How can people not have seen it before, if they have reasonable horse experience?

The things I would like to do with her with someone for now is brushing her, picking up her feet, combing out her tail (I don't dare get near her butt) that is a big issue with me, trailing her and we have just not often lately, washing her, how to make her respect peoples space, and I have done all these things just not daily or as often as I should. I feel safer when someone is with me when I work with her and I want them to teach me what to do when she is acting out. I just want to be able to handle her and touch her with out being scared for now

You know, truthfully, it really really just sounds like you and this horse are from different planets. It sounds to me like what she has largely learned so far from you (although I know you mean well, and have *tried*) is that if she doesn't like something and acts out, then she doesn't have to do it, whereas if she goes along with what you want, there is not necessarily always anything much in it for her anyways. Whereas you just want a peaceful horse that will quietly do what it's told without being scary or stubborn. Yes?

It is certainly possible for her to be trained to stand and allow tail-combing and such; but you canNOT easily (or perhaps at all) train out the things that seem to most bother you about her -- moodiness, inconsistency, the head-snakey thing, etcetera. And some of the other things that bother you most, like getting snarky when food is brought, can be 'fixed' by someone experienced but tend to just un-fix themselves when the horse goes back to an inexperienced handler.

Similarly, you yourself can be trained to better interpret her body language, to know what's serious and what's not, and to have a "toolbox" of things you can do when she behaves problematically... but in my experience there is a real limit to how much that does to overcome just basically being intimidated by a particular horse a lot of the time.

And as wc says, if you are not committed to putting serious work into this EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR, preferably more than once a day if the horse is at home, and being absolutely 100% consistent, then you are *especially* unlikely to make any meaningful dent in the problem.

Really the most satisfactory solution -- closest to guaranteed, and least likely to cause further problems -- would be to find her a new home, and just get a horse who ALREADY displays the behavior and personality you want and would enjoy.

If you don't do that, then I would suggest talking to trainers and see if someone can fit you in to send her there for a month or three, NOT for training as such but just to board there and be handled twice daily and all that. The idea being that you would be paying only board, not board plus training fee, thus more affordable. (If you can find a decent trainer who'll agree to this -- someone with tight finances and a few empty stalls might well go for it). AND AT THE SAME TIME see if they'll let you just camp out and WATCH, as much as you have time for, not asking questions or getting in the way, just sitting on an upturned bucket down the aisle and watching the trainer do things with your horse and others; or pay for lessons to do that, if necessary.

Just taking generalized riding (or roundpenning, or Parelli, or whatever) lessons is probably not going to help greatly in this situation IMHO, because lesson horses are usually selected/trained to be reasonably civil in their dealings with the public, and you don't need more practice expecting/requiring a horse to be quiet, what you need is practice figuring out how to respond when he's NOT. I am not saying that lessons with calm well-behaved horses are useless to you, they're not, I just don't think that (except past the first one or two such lessons) you would get nearly as much benefit from them, in terms of your goal here to handle your own horse more confidently.

Really though life is awfully short to spend money and time on a horse that you just fundamentally do not click with and whose basic personality (and I mean *all* aspects and moments of it, not just the good times) is that far from what you're looking for. I know it's hard to part with a horse, but maybe you could at least TRY seeing if you can find her a good alternative situation? If no good home comes along, then it's no different than if you had just decided to keep her period; but if you could find her a good situation with someone who *wanted* a young arab mare who acts young-arab-mare-ish, that might allow you to get a horse you could do more justice to.

Sorry to be blunt, I really am just trying to help,

Pat​

 

[WIChookchick]

As a person I know once said, " A young horse has the attention span of a gnat on acid"

To the poster who asked why a green/newb shouldn't work on the same horse that needs handling lessons/desensitizing. It can confuse the horse, and IF the rank beginner doesn't know how to correctly handle the young horse or proper discipline techniques, they can get injured, have a loose horse or horses, and confuse the horse.

This MAY not apply to the OP, but it can if she is not familiar with dealing with young horses in certain situations.

Arabianequine you said

She will be 3 1/2 spring of 2012. I addressed my weight in the other post I just wrote. I do know most arabs can't handle that weight although most people say I don't even look like I weigh that much but scale says different. Did you see that arab thread....I posted that guy looked huge on those arabs and I am no bigger then him. I think I am shorter for sure but does not mean it is right or he is doing it right either. Guts I would call it.

Why not look into driving her? There are so many things you can do with her in driving, showing, pleasure, and if you get a light weight cart you can trailer to trails and drive there.
That way you can enjoy your horse, and not worry about weight issues, until you can find the right combo that works for you to lose what you can, healthily and correctly.

Oddly enough mine is the antibiotics I have been on, and 2 surgeries on my shoulder.. I am almost 20 pounds lighter. LOL

Loud noises and a quick movement, either with your hand or arm along with a "Quit! OR HEY!", usually get a horse to stop and take notice. Also, pretending to kick, will get some horses to back away. It has worked for me...

Hope this helps.
Carol​

 

[welsummerchicks]

patandchickens has a lot of good points.

There are people who find themselves in a position with a horse that's a real challenge for them. Some people can make a lot of changes in how they handle and train horses, and adjust, some can't. For that reason, finding a new home for a horse that challenges them, isn't always right for everyone - for some though, it sure is.

But truth be told, such a thing is not easy, and few people do it - and not because they're lazy or bad. Some folks are petrified, and don't get over it. Fear interferes with training horses, because the person won't feel, observe or react in an effective way. Some fear, a person can lose, some not, and again, not because they are bad people. Fear has a lot of biology to it. Others simply don't have the time schedule, the health, the energy or the coordination. It takes quick reactions. A full second after a behavior, a correction will be pointless. A person really has to 'read and react'. It takes immense energy. As an old timer I need more than anything, Tylenol, a couch, and a remote, after I work out a problem with a tough horse.

I'm totally puzzled that any experienced horse person hasn't seen the snakey neck thing.

It is so common, and so widespread in so many breeds. It's a frisky, active horse thing. They do many things, striking forward with the forelegs, shaking the head, floating along in a kind of prance with the head and neck high, etc.

Many, many people have spent a lot of time around very quiet, trained horses. They haven't been around youngsters and untrained horses, but they do seem to be very ready to offer advice and declare some young horse is defective because of something it does.

Snaking is a COMMON BEHAVIOR. It is nothing weird.

Young horses have a wide variety of behavior. A youngster can vary from sweet and quiet to does-mommy-want-to-be-a-wall-pizza-today, often in the same horse, in the same day, often also completely without a mean bone in their body.

When one learns to read a horse one can usually understand why the behavior is happening, and even, see it coming. Most youngsters need a LOT of activity, unstructured, play time, with horses their age. If they don't get that, they may be quiet at times, but that pent up energy eventually does have to go somewhere.

 

[arabianequine]

I do understand why she is doing the things she is she wants food when ever I go out.

I feed good green grass hay 2 times per day 1 flake am and pm and started giving a bit more cause it is colder out.

No grain or alfalfa at this point.

I did not work her I had her stand tied for about 4 hours and she did very well and a very rare thing. I had to clean her shelter and had not been done in forever and wanted it done before winter hit. I was very surprised at how well she stood there since I had not tied her in a long time. I don't go in her pasture to feed I have it set up I can put it over the shelter in her feeding tire....same with loose feed such as grain if I give it. She just stands there waiting for it. I want to pet her at these times but she is not interested so as I stated before I don't try anymore. I can go back out and spend time with her and she is much calmer.

The snake neck thing I know why she is doing it....she is agitated and wants something, food. The lady's house she went to when I had a stud out here that saddled her right up is one who said "why you doing that" when she first meet her. Well she wanted food cause we were standing there. I have seen horses do this before.

I know nothing about driving horses either and I am not opposed to that at this point. Just don't know where to start there either. I think it would be better to be able to handle her my self first. Don't get me wrong I have and do handle her but just when I have to. I do want very much to do it more though.

 

[welsummerchicks]

Standing tied for 4 hours is working a horse. It is work for them, the younger they are, the more work it is.