Fish Thread for posting Pictures of our fish, tanks, ponds, and Q & A

[Peep-Chicken]

Hopefully the Ich is completely gone. If not it will come back more aggressively. If it is gone the best you can do is to keep water quality as perfect as possible while he heals.

Thank you!

 

[cochins1088]

Something still isn't right...

The 15 inch koi that was near death earlier is having troubles again. He's staying towards the top of the tank and gasping. He's really struggling for life.

There are 2 air pumps and there is still methylene blue in the tank. I don't know what else to do...

 

[Andi]

I'm out of ideas. Sorry. The methylene blue will help if a fungal infection tries setting in from some other primary problem. I really don't think the change in temp is the problem. Freshwater fish can recover quickly from temp changes that they have gone through.
Are there koi that don't seem affected? If so my guess is they are smaller (and don't need as much oxygen).
Maybe you need to call the vet. Something is definitely wrong.
Keep us posted.

 

[cochins1088]

You would be correct in that assumption. The smaller koi don't seem to be affected. It's the larger ones that are struggling.

 

[cochins1088]

I don't know of any local vets willing to treat fish (or have any knowledge of fish) but I will make some calls later today.

 

[Andi]

This is a long shot suggestion. Long shot because you don't have a positive id on the source, and because my suggestion leaves a stain.
Here's my thoughts.
- Difficulty breathing means either gill damage or a low oxygen level.
Gill damage could be from copper, chlorine, ammonia or parasites. If it were one of the first 3 all fish would be equally affected, for the most part.
I'm still leaning toward parasites in the gills that just haven't crippled the small fish as much because they have smaller oxygen needs than the big ones.
- When you tested the water the nitrate level was elevated. That tells me the tank is near the end of the nitrogen cycle. The bacteria are also consuming oxygen. I can't imagine its enough to cause an inadequate level for the fish. The 15" one wouldn't be suffering again either.
It is possible that the fish load for the stock tank has reached its capacity this year, after the fish spent the Summer growing. The filter seems to be pulling it's weight, but the volume of water is capable of holding only so much oxygen. While it may be a factor, oxygen would be at its lowest level at daybreak. It sounds to me like they have been having a difficult time breathing later in the day when they become more active. That makes me think parasites again.
In school we learned that potassium permanganate can be used if fish are struggling to breath. It is a strong oxydizer. Its used to treat gyrodactylus (gill parasite) and other external parasites as well as bacterial gill disease. It also is used to reduce an excessive bioload, which isn't your issue. An added benefit is that when it breaks down it releases oxygen into the water. (KMnO4)
In my book that was put out by the US Department of the Interior Fish and Wildlife Service, the treatment is 2-4 ppm for 1 hour on 3 successive days.
Be sure to reseed the filter after treatment.
Again, this stuff stains! If you get it on your hands they will be stained brown for quite a while. You won't get stains out of clothes. It needs to be stored in a cool dry location. It is highly flammable. I think I recall it being used in bomb making but I'm not sure on that.
I have it on hand for treating new fish and plants for hitchhikers.
At minimum it will be an emergency quick source of oxygen. At best it will eliminate a possible gill parasite invasion.

 

[cochins1088]

This is a long shot suggestion. Long shot because you don't have a positive id on the source, and because my suggestion leaves a stain.
Here's my thoughts.
- Difficulty breathing means either gill damage or a low oxygen level.
Gill damage could be from copper, chlorine, ammonia or parasites. If it were one of the first 3 all fish would be equally affected, for the most part.
I'm still leaning toward parasites in the gills that just haven't crippled the small fish as much because they have smaller oxygen needs than the big ones.
- When you tested the water the nitrate level was elevated. That tells me the tank is near the end of the nitrogen cycle. The bacteria are also consuming oxygen. I can't imagine its enough to cause an inadequate level for the fish. The 15" one wouldn't be suffering again either.
It is possible that the fish load for the stock tank has reached its capacity this year, after the fish spent the Summer growing. The filter seems to be pulling it's weight, but the volume of water is capable of holding only so much oxygen. While it may be a factor, oxygen would be at its lowest level at daybreak. It sounds to me like they have been having a difficult time breathing later in the day when they become more active. That makes me think parasites again.
In school we learned that potassium permanganate can be used if fish are struggling to breath. It is a strong oxydizer. Its used to treat gyrodactylus (gill parasite) and other external parasites as well as bacterial gill disease. It also is used to reduce an excessive bioload, which isn't your issue. An added benefit is that when it breaks down it releases oxygen into the water. (KMnO4)
In my book that was put out by the US Department of the Interior Fish and Wildlife Service, the treatment is 2-4 ppm for 1 hour on 3 successive days.
Be sure to reseed the filter after treatment.
Again, this stuff stains! If you get it on your hands they will be stained brown for quite a while. You won't get stains out of clothes. It needs to be stored in a cool dry location. It is highly flammable. I think I recall it being used in bomb making but I'm not sure on that.
I have it on hand for treating new fish and plants for hitchhikers.
At minimum it will be an emergency quick source of oxygen. At best it will eliminate a possible gill parasite invasion.

Do you know where I can find potassium permanganate?

You said to treat for one hour on 3 successive days. Do you recommend that I move them to a different tank during the treatment? Like a dip? Or should I simply add it to the tank they're in?

You mentioned that ammonia can be the cause of gill damage. We were on vacation from January 5th to the 10th and we had someone else care for our animals during that time. On the 6th, that person informed me that one of the koi looked dead. I asked her to leave it in case it was just 'hibernating'. I came back on the 10th and the fish was indeed dead. It was a small one from pets smart that I didn't really care for. I removed the fish and forgot about it because everyone else appeared healthy. Next confession... I ran out of the ammonia test solution so that is the ONE thing I didn't test for. Perhaps the death of the small koi (left in the water for 5 days) caused an ammonia speak.

ugg... if this is the cause, then it was my own ignorance that killed him...

Then again, if the koi was removed on the 10th, then the biological filter should have kicked in and converted the ammonia to nitrite by now. I don't know...

Back to the potassium permanganate. I didn't notice any gill damage, but I will look more closer tonight. If they are damaged, they should be stained blue because of the methylene, correct?
The methylene blue successfully identified a small spot in which his slime coat has been damaged.

 

[Andi]

I agree, by now the ammonia probably has been processed. If ammonia burns to the gills happened it would affect all of them to some degree. They would all be jumpy and zipping about even with the lower temps. Its possible that the little one that died succumbed to a gill parasites and the added stress of moving into the tank in the garage.

Upon dying the parasites searched for new hosts. Its just a guess. It would be helpful if a vet could at least take a look under the scope of a swab from the gills of the 15" one, who seems to be in the toughest shape. I would guess they could at least figure that out even if they don't specialize in fish. You could do it if you have a scope and some slides. The info is on the net as to what they look like, I'm sure. They are small but not microscopic.

Potassium permanganate I've found in the bigger home stores, like a Home Depot type store. I've found it in the plumbing department sold as a water treatment for septic systems. Its also available online, but that would take a while. If your local home store or hardware store doesn't have it in stock ask if they can get a bottle in for you quickly. They might.

This is a dip method and, in my personal opinion, the best method. If parasites are in the gills the fish will be putting out more slime to try and slough them off, which doesn't help with breathing either. The dip method will be more effective at cutting through the extra mucus. How you choose to do it is up to you. Weight out the effort, time and cost between the 2 methods.

Easiest if to treat the stock tank. Doing that means a total flush after an hour, 3 days in a row. The volume of PP may also be higher, depending on how many fish you need to treat. With a smaller tank or tub you would need to start with new solution each batch being treated because the PP will break down and be ineffective for the next batch of fish. Also keep in mind when treating that koi are great jumpers when they want to be. Put a weighted cover over them during treatment.

A dip is basically a chemotherapy. It will stress the fish to an extent. The fish will become a little lethargic towards the end of treatment. If they become lethargic toward the beginning, remove them and recalculate the dosage.

Another treatment method for external parasites is salt. I've used softener salt that has the least amount of other ingredients on treating koi. For a dip use a 3% solution for 10-30 minutes. Take the fish out either when they appear to be passing out or 30 minutes, which ever comes first. It doesn't stain and is easier to find and cheaper. One word of caution if you use the salt. don't dissolve it in a small portion on water first. Honestly, I can't remember why other than it was stressed to remember that in school.

One advantage to salt is you don't have to make up new batches with each treatment that day because the salt doesn't break down, plus the treatment time is half that of PP. Salt doesn't break down and release oxygen like PP does, which the fish would appreciate. The PP may have better penetration. Its just another option for you.

Now don't go beating yourself up about this. These organisms are usually present. Stress lets them take advantage of the situation. That little guy may not have been as healthy when they came into the garage. Just because something unexpected happened you shouldn't let it throw you off. Just roll with it. I suppose next year you could take the precautionary measure of getting them on medicated feed at the end of the season and put an anti-parasite medication in the tank when you put them in. I'm not positive what the cause of all of this is, just making an educated guess.

I hope all of this works out for the best for you. I know how attached I get to koi.

 

[cochins1088]

Thank-you so much Andi. You've been a huge help and I really appreciate it.

Like you said, koi are very easy to get attached too. My favorite is a 16 inch orange and black doitsu koi. He's incredibly friendly and fun. I always take the time to hand feed him. Thankfully, he wasn't affected by this. I brought him inside to my 125 gallon tank as soon as winter came. He was never out in the garage.

I'm going to go searching for potassium permanganate and give it a try. If I can't find it, I'll use salt. I have to try something...

and thanks for the words of encouragement. It's been a frustrating week...

 

[cochins1088]

Sad news... My lovely 15 inch doitsu koi passed away last night. He just couldn't hold on any longer...

He was by far the worst of the bunch. The other's are acting 'off' but they don't look like they are in immediate danger.

As much as I don't want too, I could probably remove one of his gills for a closer look. I don't have a microscope, but I do have a magnifying glass. If it is parasites, would I be able to see them?