fodder, meal worms, and diet questions

[Folly's place]

Modern chicken breeds are NOT wild type birds, and need balanced diets to thrive and do well, and produce as they are bred to do. Wild jungle fowl in SE Asia are not at all like our chickens!!!
Producing 250 to 350 eggs per year is a huge metabolic effort for a hen, and she will literally die trying to achieve this if she's genetically programmed for this production.
A wild type hen might lay 30 eggs in a year instead.
Trying to raise a modern football linebacker on rice and oatmeal, or a dairy cow producing 110 pounds of milk each day on straw, or a Kentucky Derby or marathon winner on sawdust.
Mary

 

[EggSighted4Life]

doesn't this info pertains mostly to ruminants? there are people who can raise them just on fodder and free range. IMHO it is best to feed the sprout at the length of seed stage, not at the grass stage. also, having fat with proteins is good for the chickens, in summer but specially in winter.

The nutritional information is just the nutrients regardless of who consumes it. There is more readily available information regarding ruminants, but it is still pertinent information IMO. The information I posted had the nutrients levels at different stages of growing, not digestion. So no I don't think it pertains to just ruminants. People feed sprouts or fodder for different reasons. Feeding at a shorter sprout stage gives you less chance of mold and takes less time, but WHY do you say it's best to feed when the sprout is the same length as seed? Maybe that is what is best for YOU. But some people are trying to get the GREEN into their birds diet... and believe the significant weight increase equals feed savings, not realizing it is dry weight that matters not water content.

Yes, there are even people on here that raise their birds completely free range with NO fodder and do OK. It depends on your pasture, weather, what breed chicken you have, stock density, and your personal goals.

My personal goal is to have healthy chickens that live WAY better lifestyle than factory birds... which produce eggs and meat for my family in addition to being fun pets and with no worry about recalls. I see so called free range wild animals all the time... it isn't an easy life. In the wild... almost all animals die younger than in captivity. It's partly because of the dangers, but I'm sure it's got something to do with inadequate diet. Some fodder will have more nutritional values than others. If you grow just one kind and rely heavily on it as your feed... not only will your birds be lacking something... but your subsequent eggs will be as well. You are what you eat. For this reason, I provide a formulated ration (according to poultry nutrition experts)... and my birds have access to pasture as well which includes bugs and not only grass but all kinds of other weeds. All guidelines I see state to give treats at a rate of not more than 10% of the total daily ration... after seeing (and smelling) peoples dogs or other animals who aren't fed properly... I choose to go with what I know will provide the best life for my flock... which means meal worms are a treat. I may consider fodder in the same fashion... a treat. While at first I was thinking oh it's just like free ranging... that isn't true if variety is lacking... or if like in my case they just pick the seeds off. Another thing I know I already stated... my time is valuable. Growing fodder, sprouting, and meal worms... are fun to do as a hobby... when I want to. It takes a little more time to feed out all the extra stuffs. Being required to do it day in and day out... will steal MY joy. I know myself and work within my limits. But still stand by my original information... in that mealworms and fodder or sprouting is in my opinion, according to research I have done and my own personal experience... best given as a treat, supplement, or enrichment and not as a main feed source.

I agree that fat is absolutely necessary... we can NOT live without it as some vitamins and such are only fat soluble so they won't absorb without it. "But especially in winter"?... hogwash! Fat and protein have the SAME amount of calories... but protein is gonna be loaded with amino acids and other nutrients. The amount of fat in meal worms, per the original post... if fed as a main protein source is gonna give you some very unhealthy chickens... likely dying earlier in life, producing fewer eggs, and facing more parasites and possibly disease along the way. Nutrition matters and it NEEDS to be balanced. Most chicken feeds have below 6% fat. Please note I never said chickens should be fat free.

I have even seen people who raise their chickens on just scratch... they are the ones who post about how terrible their flock is doing and don't understand why. It's because our formulated feeds have the needed vitamins, minerals, and amino acids added in. They aren't just grains.

Glad to have you join the conversation.

 

[FnWeirdo]

@EggSighted4Life

in my limited readings i read that the " fattening up for winter" thinking is a myth. from what i read it doesn't do much to help them keep warm and its extremely unhealthy for your flock. can lead to many nasty disorders and issues. a big part lazy birds. if they just sit still all day they aren't burning any food fuel so they aren't generating heat. also leads to muscle loss from what i read. and muscles burn fat and calories.
( prob have that wrong lol)

but i have a question on fodder seed.
I've been driving around today trying to find a seed to start experimenting with fodder. i found only black oil sun flower seeds but they are advertised as wild bird feed. is this alright to fodder and give to my birds or am i better off just ordering better seed quality?

 

[Folly's place]

There are seed catalogs for farmers; try looking them up for seed choices, and only get organic untreated seeds.
Mary

 

[EggSighted4Life]

i found only black oil sun flower seeds but they are advertised as wild bird feed. is this alright to fodder and give to my birds

A lot of people like to use BOSS. And yes it is OK to fodder, though many report that it floats.

For me it is too high in fat... But they are also supposed to be pretty high in some other things. So maybe not daily.
https://www.hiprofeeds.com/products/black-oil-sunflower-seeds

in my limited readings i read that the " fattening up for winter" thinking is a myth.

Many animals in the wild DO fatten up for winter... as they know they will be facing a long period without a reliable food source. And they live off of their fat stores to get through. And I can see where as there could have been a time that people needed to feed out their extra fat as a matter of economics (waste not want not we were taught) and a basic source of energy.

I would use the internet and telephone before spending my gas or time to drive all over.

Sometimes when we wanna try just a small amount of something we will buy it at the health food store or even Wally... like flax seeds, chia, or millet. Maybe whole oats. Even popcorn (again just to try for fun). I have only been able to find split peas locally or I would try for peas as they are high protein. My feed store owner had to order my barley seed but it was still reasonable price and came in quickly on their next shipment.

Not sure if shipping is reasonable or not but you can at least get some good ideas from this link...
https://hancockseed.com/application-area-239/fodder-seed-580/

Come to think of it... my friend buys a lot of the things she sprouts at Grocery Outlet.

 

[glib]

The nutritional information is just the nutrients regardless of who consumes it. There is more readily available information regarding ruminants, but it is still pertinent information IMO. The information I posted had the nutrients levels at different stages of growing, not digestion. So no I don't think it pertains to just ruminants. People feed sprouts or fodder for different reasons. Feeding at a shorter sprout stage gives you less chance of mold and takes less time, but WHY do you say it's best to feed when the sprout is the same length as seed? Maybe that is what is best for YOU. But some people are trying to get the GREEN into their birds diet... and believe the significant weight increase equals feed savings, not realizing it is dry weight that matters not water content.

Yes, there are even people on here that raise their birds completely free range with NO fodder and do OK. It depends on your pasture, weather, what breed chicken you have, stock density, and your personal goals.

My personal goal is to have healthy chickens that live WAY better lifestyle than factory birds... which produce eggs and meat for my family in addition to being fun pets and with no worry about recalls. I see so called free range wild animals all the time... it isn't an easy life. In the wild... almost all animals die younger than in captivity. It's partly because of the dangers, but I'm sure it's got something to do with inadequate diet. Some fodder will have more nutritional values than others. If you grow just one kind and rely heavily on it as your feed... not only will your birds be lacking something... but your subsequent eggs will be as well. You are what you eat. For this reason, I provide a formulated ration (according to poultry nutrition experts)... and my birds have access to pasture as well which includes bugs and not only grass but all kinds of other weeds. All guidelines I see state to give treats at a rate of not more than 10% of the total daily ration... after seeing (and smelling) peoples dogs or other animals who aren't fed properly... I choose to go with what I know will provide the best life for my flock... which means meal worms are a treat. I may consider fodder in the same fashion... a treat. While at first I was thinking oh it's just like free ranging... that isn't true if variety is lacking... or if like in my case they just pick the seeds off. Another thing I know I already stated... my time is valuable. Growing fodder, sprouting, and meal worms... are fun to do as a hobby... when I want to. It takes a little more time to feed out all the extra stuffs. Being required to do it day in and day out... will steal MY joy. I know myself and work within my limits. But still stand by my original information... in that mealworms and fodder or sprouting is in my opinion, according to research I have done and my own personal experience... best given as a treat, supplement, or enrichment and not as a main feed source.

I agree that fat is absolutely necessary... we can NOT live without it as some vitamins and such are only fat soluble so they won't absorb without it. "But especially in winter"?... hogwash! Fat and protein have the SAME amount of calories... but protein is gonna be loaded with amino acids and other nutrients. The amount of fat in meal worms, per the original post... if fed as a main protein source is gonna give you some very unhealthy chickens... likely dying earlier in life, producing fewer eggs, and facing more parasites and possibly disease along the way. Nutrition matters and it NEEDS to be balanced. Most chicken feeds have below 6% fat. Please note I never said chickens should be fat free.

I have even seen people who raise their chickens on just scratch... they are the ones who post about how terrible their flock is doing and don't understand why. It's because our formulated feeds have the needed vitamins, minerals, and amino acids added in. They aren't just grains.

Glad to have you join the conversation.

Yes, but dry matter, for example, only makes sense with ruminants.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Yes, but dry matter, for example, only makes sense with ruminants.

How do you figure?

Moisture equals water that your body processes out through the kidneys. The dry matter is what provides the calories or energy... whether you have multiple stomachs or only one.

 

[glib]

we will have to disagree. Alfalfa pellets, for example, will provide much more calories to a ruminant than to a chicken, although the DM content is the same.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

we will have to disagree. Alfalfa pellets, for example, will provide much more calories to a ruminant than to a chicken, although the DM content is the same.

I'm open to learn something new...

Please tell me HOW this is so?? Show me links, or tell me why. Please?

 

[Folly's place]

It's not about the moisture here! Ruminants digest differently than monogastric critters, so use what's there differently. Adding water does not improve protein or calorie content for a species, so adding water to feed for chickens isn't going to add nutrients per pound of dry matter to their diet.
Mary