Found out what happens when you mix a bobwhite tux mutt with a Tibetan

[spookyevilone]

Quote:
White's an autosumnal recessive. True white carries nothing but the white gene and is very hard to find. Chicken is a true white - totally recessive, because the chicks have no white on them. Which makes me sad.

A&M's are whites crossed with Jumbos and bred until white is the dominant colour of the bird - however, it's still not a dominant gene trait, which is why A&M's have the random dark feathers and when bred together can throw brown chicks. Which means the expressed white - which is normally a recessive - isn't a true recessive. It's called a masking recessive if the expression of the colour isn't representative of the genome. As to where I read that.. I forget where. It was the reason I didn't get any A&M's though. If I find the cite, I'll pass it on. As for figuring out it was a masking recessive.. that came from years of breeding other animals.

Hotot rabbits are another example - they're not white rabbits even though their bodies are white. You can occasionally get some with much more black markings than around the eyes - and sometimes completely black or brown babies, though that's rarer now than it was when I helped establish the breed here in the US.

If you can get all white A&M's that express nothing but white feathers and breed them exclusively to others expressing all white feathers, eventually you should be able to breed out the brown genes. However.. I don't know about the jumbo gene. That may breed out too. In theory, it'd be like producing any other colour mutation of the quail. You'd basically be breeding back to the English line but trying to keep the Jumbo gene trait. Since I know nothing about the development of the Jumbo lines, can't really say what'd happen - not sure what it's linked to.

I'll stop being a genetics geek on you now

-Spooky

 

[Suz658]

hi

i looked at the 'red tux' post ... pictures took an age to come through lol ... but worth it

both the parents are pure coturnix ... Bumble is a double barred Range Tuxedo and the father could be a chocolate tux .. look quite similar to some of mine.

Chocolates -

Normal Range (this one just happens to be a tux) -

Double barred Range - (not the best photo, must sort out photobucket .. theres 1000's of pics to look through

, but if you look at the link on the your post - the 'rosetta' quail is great picture double barred range.)

suz

 

[monarc23]

Thank you Spooky!

That seriously put everything in perspective for me! I think Im still going to try and breed out the markings...but TRY to keep in mind size too. I want jumbos in all of my colors so I have my work cut out for me.

My goal in Tibetans and Tuxedos is almost black looking birds which i should be able to get through breeding tibe to tibe ---making it darker i've been told. However I've also been told that tibe to tibe can make lighters too.

In my Goldens my goal is to make them all look like the golden I got from SamG before he got out of his birds. Hawn is a gorgeous golden male that i can't wait to breed.

I found out that my golden/white is actually just a very light golden, so theres a possiblity I can breed for it through pacience and work. *im talking about Tundra*. So I can't wait to start working on that.

Then take all the color out of the A & ms while in the mean time keeping them jumbo.

And the goal for all to stay jumbo... theres no exgausted icon...but if there was post it here lol!

Quote:
White's an autosumnal recessive. True white carries nothing but the white gene and is very hard to find. Chicken is a true white - totally recessive, because the chicks have no white on them. Which makes me sad.

A&M's are whites crossed with Jumbos and bred until white is the dominant colour of the bird - however, it's still not a dominant gene trait, which is why A&M's have the random dark feathers and when bred together can throw brown chicks. Which means the expressed white - which is normally a recessive - isn't a true recessive. It's called a masking recessive if the expression of the colour isn't representative of the genome. As to where I read that.. I forget where. It was the reason I didn't get any A&M's though. If I find the cite, I'll pass it on. As for figuring out it was a masking recessive.. that came from years of breeding other animals.

Hotot rabbits are another example - they're not white rabbits even though their bodies are white. You can occasionally get some with much more black markings than around the eyes - and sometimes completely black or brown babies, though that's rarer now than it was when I helped establish the breed here in the US.

If you can get all white A&M's that express nothing but white feathers and breed them exclusively to others expressing all white feathers, eventually you should be able to breed out the brown genes. However.. I don't know about the jumbo gene. That may breed out too. In theory, it'd be like producing any other colour mutation of the quail. You'd basically be breeding back to the English line but trying to keep the Jumbo gene trait. Since I know nothing about the development of the Jumbo lines, can't really say what'd happen - not sure what it's linked to.

I'll stop being a genetics geek on you now

-Spooky

 

[spookyevilone]

Quote:
Uh, no, Bumbles is most definitely not pure Coturnix. That may be the colours she's expressing, but since I know for a fact that her father's a Bobwhite, that means she's a mutt. She also has much different markings than the dark tuxedos around here. Her parents still live in the same cage at the breeder and have produced other eggs and chicks. I had one of her siblings, but it didn't survive. There's another pair from different lines that just started laying. When the chicks are old enough, I'm going to get another - hopefully a roo - and breed Bumbles to it to see what comes out the other side.

The breeder I got them from is working on several branches of experimental hybrids. Bumbles is first generation of this. Bumbles also acts and sounds like a Bobwhite.

I'm confused by your posts.. my red tux isn't in with Bumbles. He's in with another red tux female. They're not chocolate - I've seen those, they're a dilute of the dark tux - it's most definitely RED feathers. Unless UK chocolates are different than the ones here?

The red tux produce the red tux chicks. Bumbles is in with a Tibetan. Her chicks seem to have both her markings and their father's toes, but I have no clue what the colours will be of the feathers. One seems to have the bobwhite "eyebrows". The other has a mostly white face, so I think that's the tuxedo markings.
-Spooky

 

[Suz658]

Quote:
Now i'm confused ... I've been breeding mutation coturnix & bobwhites for over 5 year and have never heard the expression, what do you mean by bobwhite eyebrow?

Can I ask about the physical features of your hybrid, for example which species does she resemble most, colour and shape of eggs, Age at POL And also do you know if these F1 hybrids were bred conventually or by AI. I find the whole idea of true hybrids fascinating.

thank

Suz

PS. Thought it might be easier for you to explain the eyebrow thing with photos. Do your chicks look anything like these?

Bobwhite chicks (Northern & red tennessee & white)

Adult - (blackfaced red & northern hen & cock)

 

[monarc23]

^^ Beautiful bob babies! I love the closeups i never realized how much their beaks curve!

 

[Suz658]

Quote:
Now i'm confused ... I've been breeding mutation coturnix & bobwhites for over 5 year and have never heard the expression, what do you mean by bobwhite eyebrow?

Can I ask about the physical features of your hybrid, for example which species does she resemble most, colour and shape of eggs, Age at POL And also do you know if these F1 hybrids were bred conventually or by AI. I find the whole idea of true hybrids fascinating.

thank

Suz

I thought of a few other questions about your hybid ....

What weight is it? Hows its flying capability? also does it roost? Oh and last one, when mating does do the bobwhite courtship thing?

Thanks

 

[spookyevilone]

Quote:
Now i'm confused ... I've been breeding mutation coturnix & bobwhites for over 5 year and have never heard the expression, what do you mean by bobwhite eyebrow?

Can I ask about the physical features of your hybrid, for example which species does she resemble most, colour and shape of eggs, Age at POL And also do you know if these F1 hybrids were bred conventually or by AI. I find the whole idea of true hybrids fascinating.

thank

Suz

I thought of a few other questions about your hybid ....

What weight is it? Hows its flying capability? also does it roost? Oh and last one, when mating does do the bobwhite courtship thing?

Thanks

I grew up around wild bobwhites. I'm not a bobwhite breeder. The 'eyebrows' are the band of lighter feathers just above the eye that go back and form a line down their back. Tuxedo quail's lighter feathers go around the eyes and down toward their chest, like a penguin.

Her coloration is unusual for a tuxedo - the breeder's dark tuxedos look not much like her. Their feather patterns are different with less feather tipping and barring. Eggs are darker green than the other coturnix I have, roughly same shape, but take longer to incubate. Her chicks hatched at Day 22 and 23, not Day 16. I thought one had broken from fumes, but when I took it out, it peeped at me so I put it back in the hatcher.

POL? What's that? F1 was bred conventionally - male bobs put in with coturnix females at a very early age and raised together. The breeder raises them in battery breeder cages in pairs, not colonies.

Weight: Don't know, don't weigh my birds, but she's bigger and has a much bigger chest area than my other Coturnix, and about a head taller than any of them. Her general bone shape is different. My coturnix were bred to be small, so they're on the smaller end of the scale - Bumbles is bigger than all but the Tibetan.

Flying capability and roosting: Don't know about flying. I keep all the birds wings clipped and when I let them out, they mostly walk around and explore the living room floor for treats. Bumbles likes to climb things, the others don't. She also likes to find places to hide under things, which the others don't. When she walks, she makes little bobbing motions with her head and stops every few steps to be perfectly still and raise up and look around before going back to walking - my Coturnix don't do this. I've seen wild bobwhite do this.

She doesn't sound like the Coturnix. They make little peeps and whistles and occasionally churbling noises. Bumbles makes all sorts of noises, with at least two different songs. When I put treats in the cage, she does the Bobwhite hen calling chicks to food call. I'm trying to get a tape recorder so I can get the noises - they're really pretty.

Courtship rituals - not to my knowledge, but as I've never seen them mate, that's not saying much. I had no clue her eggs were fertile - 1) because we weren't sure the hybrids wouldn't be sterile, 2) I'd never seen the Tibetan mate with her, 3) she didn't have a big bald spot on the back of the head like my other birds - and still doesn't. I put the eggs in the 'bator and hoped, and have 2 chicks. Granted, later than I thought, but now I know to just wait longer. I'll get pics of the babies later. They're sleeping right now.
-Spooky

 

[Suz658]

Thanks for that Spooky, very interesting

I now think I know what you mean by eyebrow ... wild type coturnix chicks have similar markings for camouflage ... Corturnix lose their's & BW become more profuse as they get their adult plumage.

I'm a bit confused that you keep using 'Tuxedo' to describe your F1 hybrid's colour, as the term 'Tuxedo' is used to refer to the feather pattern on coturnix rather than a colour ... ie. white face, chest, under belly and at least 3 white primary feathers with a contrasting coloured head & back. And is never used in connection with Buttons (pied) or Bobwhite quail.

Her eggs are interesting, its not unusual for coturnix to lay coloured eggs ... but as you describe her as having more characteristics & features of a bobwhite, I would have expected her eggs to be more 'Bob' like ... Is she still laying? Could you post pictures of her next egg please. It was probably a typo, but Coturnix incubation time is 18-19 days not 16 that's Buttons

... If your incubator wasn't at optimum conditions it could easily delay hatch by a few days, explaining the hatch on day 22 & 23 ... were the eggs set on the same day? what would say the size of the F2 chick's were like, compaired to a coturnix chick?

oh nearly forgot POL = Point Of Lay, the age at when a hen lays her first egg.

I've got another request for pictures If you dont mind

Could you post a close up of the F1 hybrids head & foot, when you post pictures of the chicks.

Thank you ... I really do appreciate you answering my questions.

Suz

 

[deerman]

Doesnt look like any bobwhite, in there. The hen could have been fertile from another males for weeks.

What color are the eggs???