Genetic Hackle Fowl Chat

[SourRoses]

That is such a hard choice, because of it being a leaky vaccine

From the links on the Welbars site, I read that although the vaccine leaks, it is not a problem because it's the turkey version of the virus which is not harmful to chickens. It confers enough immunity to help them beat back the chicken variant if they encounter it, but not enough to keep them from becoming carriers of the chicken variant, which is where the danger comes in.

The most promising approach for the future is likely to be MRNA vaccines that can transmit the immune system instructions without spreading any viral particles.

 

[Dovemaiden]

From the links on the Welbars site, I read that although the vaccine leaks, it is not a problem because it's the turkey version of the virus which is not harmful to chickens. It confers enough immunity to help them beat back the chicken variant if they encounter it, but not enough to keep them from becoming carriers of the chicken variant, which is where the danger comes in.

The most promising approach for the future is likely to be MRNA vaccines that can transmit the immune system instructions without spreading any viral particles.

There are a couple of different lines of thought on this, depending on which studies were done, and if there were conflicts of interest present, but not mentioned, during the studies. That always takes some detective work, since you rarely see researchers admit to a conflict of interest at the end of their papers, even if they closely associated with the company.
The mRNA shows promise, yes, but they need to avoid using retroviruses in the future, that is truly a sticky wicket.
Retroviruses create havoc on gene expression sequences through integration with the host genome. Using a different viral family would be necessary. They picked a retrovirus this first time because the gp120 section showed such a " robust initial immune response" but didn't look at the long-term term effects it engenders. Or, they were in such a hurry to market it that ignored it and hoped for the best. The delivery system(s) were a failure as well, since the contents delivered to the deltoid muscle did not stay in the deltoid muscle, as planned.
It would be good to see more research go into this with long term studies. Making vaccines the traditional way is about an 8-year project for safety concerns, but it has enough experience behind it that the mechanism is understood. Actually, they could rectify the problems with the Marek's, it is just that not enough people have complained for them to do that. And, it would cost a good deal of money, and take up a lot of time. If they are not forced to do it, they will leave it the way it is, because the companies are revenue driven, not altruistic. I guess nearly every large business is this way, however.
Pharmaceutical products in the form of innoculations are huge sources of revenue, and rarely well-understood by the public. This leaky vaccine problem becoming a news item is something the drug companies did not anticipate.
Perhaps it will make them scramble and correct the problem sooner than later if it gets enough publicity. You would probably need the big hatcheries make an issue of it, however, since the small breeders are not a big enough revenue source for a pharmaceutical company to actually pay attention and take action, until it hits them in the pocketbook.

 

[SourRoses]

There are a couple of different lines of thought on this, depending on which studies were done,

Well, I think it's pretty simple in that the virus variants are different. So, all you need to test any theory about it is to send samples of both for DNA analysis.

The mRNA shows promise, yes, but they need to avoid using retroviruses in the future, that is truly a sticky wicket.
Retroviruses create havoc on gene expression sequences through integration with the host genome. Using a different viral family would be necessary. They picked a retrovirus this first time because the gp120 section showed such a " robust initial immune response" but didn't look at the long-term term effects it engenders.

I'm pretty happy with the MRNA product I received. Nothing bad occurred, and when I caught the most virulent strain this spring the symptoms were gone rapidly. Whereas the first strain in 2020 had me lying awake all night choking and thinking I might not make it till morning, and I'm only a millennial. Suffice to say, I'm grateful for the technology.

We're already exposed to retroviruses in our environment, so it's hard to see how the same thing re-tasked is going to be more harmful.

Chickens have survived retrovirus exposure too! And we have two of those incidents to thank for the beautiful blue eggs! (my favorite )

 

[Dovemaiden]

Oh darn! I had hoped those folks on the FB group who said they would contact you would follow through I was waaay too slow posting up feedback on my great chick box from you.

Funnily enough, the Hackles seem to do at least as well in the Florida heat as the Ameraucana. The Ams will be panting when the Hackles are just perching around sunning themselves. But then the Ams are very active in comparison, so I think it evens out.

I wondered if the super fine Hackle feathers let the heat escape... or perhaps the feather stiffness allows them to trap cool air underneath?
We did have trouble in the first heatwave this summer when the Hackles were still feathering in, about 4 weeks. It was just bad timing from the weather. It didn't drop below 97 almost all day, for a week straight, not cooling off at night, and after a few days of it the smaller Hackles got the runs and then pasty butt. Despite all efforts we lost one to that. But as soon as the nighttime temps came down everyone seemed happier and ever since they've done well in our normal Florida summer heat.

Speaking of the Ams, here's one of the Mottled I got from you, Dennis. His name is Popcorn, so far showing a really docile personality. I've been chatting about them a few places, so you may get more interest in them come spring?

In contrast the Black cockerel is the most bold and active chicken I've ever witnessed hands down. He's like a gymnast, constantly flying and bouncing off of stuff. I hope he doesn't turn mean, we really like him, and I plan to put him over my Isabel hens who don't display any feather shredding to get a nice source of Lavenders, hopefully.

That mottled Ameraucana is beautiful. I did not know they were mottled like that.

 

[Dovemaiden]

Well, I think it's pretty simple in that the virus variants are different. So, all you need to test any theory about it is to send samples of both for DNA analysis.




I'm pretty happy with the MRNA product I received. Nothing bad occurred, and when I caught the most virulent strain this spring the symptoms were gone rapidly. Whereas the first strain in 2020 had me lying awake all night choking and thinking I might not make it till morning, and I'm only a millennial. Suffice to say, I'm grateful for the technology.

We're already exposed to retroviruses in our environment, so it's hard to see how the same thing re-tasked is going to be more harmful.

Chickens have survived retrovirus exposure too! And we have two of those incidents to thank for the beautiful blue eggs! (my favorite )

You are right, with the blue chickens egg! That was a retrovirus.
I have had the upper level courses( 500’s) in college and I do have a couple of Bachelor of Science degrees, one in Public Health, one Microbiology, so I follow these things pretty closely. My Virology teacher focused on the retroviruses because they had become so important, with the advent of HIV, and I can show you, if you want, and are interested, what problems are inherent when I said retroviruses cause difficulties with host gene expression/suppression, from the updated textbooks. We don’t normally get exposed in the fashion we did.
I realize the stuff I studied & continue to study are pretty much Greek to anyone not in the field, that’s ok, & it probably isn’t of much interest if you don’t havent taken those types of classes.
I am sure they will do much more with mRNA viruses in the future, and I am glad you had a good experience with your shots, and recovered and are well from Covid.
I do realize, as you said, without the background it is hard to see how retasking a retrovirus is a problem, & naturally you would think of them as being ubiquitous in the environment, but they are not as common as other families( like, say, Corona) and the method of exposure is different.
It’s rather difficult to get a retrovirus integrated unless it is introduced in the fashion they did a couple years ago. I am sure they will be doing lots more work to perfect the technique as they go along.
It is quite an interesting delivery system, for sure. We certainly have come a long way from Jenner & the cowpox injections! I was always grateful for the canary pox polyvalent vaccines Biomune used to provide, and quite saddened when they discontinued the series. I can(and have) innoculated canaries with “ringers” in the Pox family, and it works quite well( they are all brick-shaped) but it wa so much easier when you could buy them from a series. In school, they taught us how to “ reactivate” dead bird -pox vaccine by mixing with live, attenuated closely-related strains. Viruses are an interesting lot.

 

[Dovemaiden]

I am still trying to find the chart that is supposed to be out there , somewhere, listing the regular names of poultry coloration, and then the fly tiers names for the birds. Rather difficult!

Oh darn! I had hoped those folks on the FB group who said they would contact you would follow through I was waaay too slow posting up feedback on my great chick box from you.

Funnily enough, the Hackles seem to do at least as well in the Florida heat as the Ameraucana. The Ams will be panting when the Hackles are just perching around sunning themselves. But then the Ams are very active in comparison, so I think it evens out.

I wondered if the super fine Hackle feathers let the heat escape... or perhaps the feather stiffness allows them to trap cool air underneath?
We did have trouble in the first heatwave this summer when the Hackles were still feathering in, about 4 weeks. It was just bad timing from the weather. It didn't drop below 97 almost all day, for a week straight, not cooling off at night, and after a few days of it the smaller Hackles got the runs and then pasty butt. Despite all efforts we lost one to that. But as soon as the nighttime temps came down everyone seemed happier and ever since they've done well in our normal Florida summer heat.

Speaking of the Ams, here's one of the Mottled I got from you, Dennis. His name is Popcorn, so far showing a really docile personality. I've been chatting about them a few places, so you may get more interest in them come spring?

In contrast the Black cockerel is the most bold and active chicken I've ever witnessed hands down. He's like a gymnast, constantly flying and bouncing off of stuff. I hope he doesn't turn mean, we really like him, and I plan to put him over my Isabel hens who don't display any feather shredding to get a nice source of Lavenders, hopefully.

I would really like to put in an order for those. I am going back on the welbar site to see what they look like.

 

[dheltzel]

I would really like to put in an order for those. I am going back on the welfare site to see what they look like.

My goal is to get a box of chicks to everyone that wants to maintain GHF long term, and then people that want to try them, but really want some of my other breeds.
The Mottled Ams have been problematic for me every year. At first I had a lot of missing muffs and beards (not picked off my others, as happens sometimes). Culled over 50% for several years. This year is looking better, but I don't pay much attention until I set up breeder pens in November. Mottleds get better looking the older they get, so my best looking hens are maybe not as productive as the less mottled ones. The other, even bigger problem is poor fertility, especially in the spring when I want chicks to sell. Often my flock is bottlenecked to a single, well-muffed male, though I always keep a backup, usually he is inferior. Really hoping this year fixes their issues, or 2023 will probably be my last year with them, pretty as they are.

 

[SourRoses]

@dheltzel For what it's worth, I really think the Mottled are worth the effort because so many people seem to want them. Your hard work shows. Many on the Mottled Am thread seem to have given up because they set their sights on perfection, like attaining solid slate legs, for instance... but with the effect of mottling that may not be genetically possible. Meanwhile, most of the customer base just wants beautiful chickens as they are.
I for one LOVE the spotty legs my Popcorn shows. They should be the standard, lol.

Are the fertility issues linked more to the males or females?

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I think I hit gold with these Alsdorf birds. My original male turned mean, but I think I caused that by treating him with too much deference. NONE of his descendants have show any tendencies to fight with me or each other. I try to raise the males together from a young age, so they don't get a rival dumped into the pen suddenly.
Not every male has perfect feathers, but none look like they have been picked at. I even have a male that is blind in one eye (infection that I did not treat in time) and he has great feathers.
Can you tell I love my GHF?

So your experience, it's easier to remove males than to add them together at an older age?

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Chicks hatch Monday, get vaccinated early Tuesday and mailed by noon Tuesday. Most places get them Thursday late morning to early afternoon. I keep biosecurity in mind because even the chicks I am keeping need 3 weeks of isolation from adult birds before they are protected from Marek's.
What is unsafe is to buy older birds that have been outside, vaccinated or not. Any chicken can be infected with and transmit various strains of Marek's. Bringing in a vaccinated, but infected, birds is the worst scenario, as that bird will never show Marek's symptoms, even if you quarantine for a year, but they can pass it along to the rest of the flock, and they could get symptoms and die. Hence the common advice to not mix vaccinated and unvaccinated birds. The advice is sorta-kinda right, sometimes.

Do you vaccinate chicks you hatch?

No, I don't. I tend to get my hatchery chicls vaccinated now, but I can't mentally justify vaccinating three or four birds every week or so. So those ones I consider to just be the canaries in the coal mine unfortunately. I don't bring in adult birds though either, ever because I've seen what mareks can do to a healthy flock. But I'm glad you handle your chicks carefully. I've seen a lot of people that get them vaccinated so they can give them to a broody right away