Genetic Hackle Fowl Chat

[JacinLarkwell]

Very possible that Phoenix were used by early breeders of hackle fowl to get longer feathers. Some breeders shared some of their breeding notes, but most kept them secret, so no real "recipe" exists for making them. Chance mutations caught be careful breeders probably had a lot to do with it also.

Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. I have a cockerel with saddles that definitely reminds me of hacklefowl right now running around. Thankfully he's the one the girls seem to like

 

[Chickenosauurs_RexNo54]

How many lines of Genetic Hackle are there? Would they all be considered different breeds due to the likely different founding breeds in each line? Would it be okay to cross the lines for genetic diversity and vigour? Do you have to keep them indoors or can you let them free-range to an extant?

 

[SourRoses]

How many lines of Genetic Hackle are there? Would they all be considered different breeds due to the likely different founding breeds in each line? Would it be okay to cross the lines for genetic diversity and vigour? Do you have to keep them indoors or can you let them free-range to an extant?

They are all considered Genetic Hackle fowl as long as the feathers meet the basic criteria for fly tying, including stiff barbs, feather length, and the way it handles being bent.

The lines have been crossed by former breeders so that's fine. As for whether they are genetically distinct enough to enhance vigor I don't know.

Whiting snatched up the most famous lines to advance his program and none of that blood will ever be available.
My impression from the FB group is there are a few different lines left in the hands of private breeders, of these, I still think the Alsdorf line from Dennis looks the best.
But I may be biased since that's where my birds come from.

I let mine free range all day and they do great. Predator savvy good roosters. The feathers stay in really great condition with room to move and the cleanliness of the open space. The roos raised together don't fight.
I honestly just can't understand why people keep them locked up in horrible tiny cages.

 

[Chickenosauurs_RexNo54]

They are all considered Genetic Hackle fowl as long as the feathers meet the basic criteria for fly tying, including stiff barbs, feather length, and the way it handles being bent.

The lines have been crossed by former breeders so that's fine. As for whether they are genetically distinct enough to enhance vigor I don't know.

Whiting snatched up the most famous lines to advance his program and none of that blood will ever be available.
My impression from the FB group is there are a few different lines left in the hands of private breeders, of these, I still think the Alsdorf line from Dennis looks the best.
But I may be biased since that's where my birds come from.

I let mine free range all day and they do great. Predator savvy good roosters. The feathers stay in really great condition with room to move and the cleanliness of the open space. The roos raised together don't fight.
I honestly just can't understand why people keep them locked up in horrible tiny cages.

Oh, Thank you. I didn't realize that Whiting took what was left of those lines. That is good to know, I am really against putting birds in cages unless they are aviaries like they have in zoos, coops, if they just prefer the indoors like bantams ( from what I heard ), or for their own protection. That's good to know that they are predator-aware and that it is ok to cross breed lines. If you crossbred lines would they be considered a new line?

 

[Bigtom Turkey]

Not until you set the traits you want to promote.

 

[Chickenosauurs_RexNo54]

Not until you set the traits you want to promote.

Oh, ok. Thank you.

 

[McChooky]

The roosters are some of the most beautiful birds I've ever seen.Long flowing tail feathers !

 

[dheltzel]

Oh, Thank you. I didn't realize that Whiting took what was left of those lines. That is good to know, I am really against putting birds in cages unless they are aviaries like they have in zoos, coops, if they just prefer the indoors like bantams ( from what I heard ), or for their own protection. That's good to know that they are predator-aware and that it is ok to cross breed lines. If you crossbred lines would they be considered a new line?

It is big business when you are the scale of Whiting. It made financial sense for him to "lock up" the genetics as much as possible. It would certainly be possible to start a business with the stock that remains "in the wild", so to speak, but for the finest quality and widest selection, that business would always be chasing Whitings lines.
I wish we could enjoy raising some of the stock that he has, but personally would not have room to expand to other lines anyway, so it is just a hypothetical for me, but I always appreciate having choices out there.

I tell people my line came from Joel Alsdorf, but they have been in my care for many generations now, so I would never "blame" him for what they are. In as sense, this is now my line, though it still retains much of the original genetics, so I feel ok using his name. It is a gray area for where a line becomes "yours". If you are doing targeted changes to the line, you are acting creatively and IMO, the line becomes yours once you start down the path of modifying them in some way from their original genetics.

I maintain Australian Spotted, Mini Silver Appleyard and Aztec ducks. The MSA seem to be severely inbred, as fertility is always very low, to the point of making them hard to maintain. I am considering doing some outcrosses and trying to re-create them from that outcross, when (if) I do that, all the resulting birds, even if they look exactly like the originals, will need to carry a label that they are my line of MSA. At least that is the way I see it.

 

[Chickenosauurs_RexNo54]

It is big business when you are the scale of Whiting. It made financial sense for him to "lock up" the genetics as much as possible. It would certainly be possible to start a business with the stock that remains "in the wild", so to speak, but for the finest quality and widest selection, that business would always be chasing Whitings lines.
I wish we could enjoy raising some of the stock that he has, but personally would not have room to expand to other lines anyway, so it is just a hypothetical for me, but I always appreciate having choices out there.

I tell people my line came from Joel Alsdorf, but they have been in my care for many generations now, so I would never "blame" him for what they are. In as sense, this is now my line, though it still retains much of the original genetics, so I feel ok using his name. It is a gray area for where a line becomes "yours". If you are doing targeted changes to the line, you are acting creatively and IMO, the line becomes yours once you start down the path of modifying them in some way from their original genetics.

I maintain Australian Spotted, Mini Silver Appleyard and Aztec ducks. The MSA seem to be severely inbred, as fertility is always very low, to the point of making them hard to maintain. I am considering doing some outcrosses and trying to re-create them from that outcross, when (if) I do that, all the resulting birds, even if they look exactly like the originals, will need to carry a label that they are my line of MSA. At least that is the way I see it.

Oh, ok. That makes sense.

 

[GANGGREEN]

I'm thrilled to find this forum. I believe I may have belonged to this or a similar forum some time ago when I was still raising my own birds, but haven't visited in eons and I just registered an account here.

I'm not terribly interested in raising any birds now only because it's physically impossible for me to do so because my wife and I are recent snowbirds and now have a place down south in addition to our Pennsylvania farm, but there was a time not that long ago that I would have dived into the genetic hackle chicken breeding with both feet.

My interest now is mostly because I'm a reasonably serious fly tyer (I don't sell, but tie for myself, brothers and friends), but also because these ARE beautiful birds. The gentleman whose capes and saddles I prefer is Charlie Collins up in Pine City, NY and his birds come directly from Harry Darbee, Doc Fried, Dick Bitner and some others and he shared his birds with Andy Minor and others, back in the day. I know that Dr. Tom Whiting gets all of the press and the attention (deservedly so), but Charlie Collins' birds and hackles are superior in some ways to Tom Whiting's birds (obviously not in all ways). The other noteworthy thing about Mr. Collins' birds is that he's developed the very best colors in the industry. He has all of the regular colors like black, cream, brown, ginger, etc., but he also has a LOT of different dun colors and many of his birds have a beautiful barring that makes their feathers not only beautiful, but it makes them come alive in/on the water.

Aside from the fact that Mr. Collins' birds/hackles have all the traits that a serious tyer wants (soft, supple stems that won't roll or twist, short, stiff, straight barbules, excellent colors, good length and consistency, etc.), the other thing I liked about him was that he never got too big, continued to run a one-man operation and as such, his capes and saddles were always extremely affordable. To this day, the tyers who still tie Catskill style dry flies prefer Charlie's hackle to anyone else's. Sadly, he's had some family health issues and he was forced to give his breeding stock to another gentleman who intends to keep the line alive (he gave it to this person and didn't ask a penny, which I find extremely noteworthy).

I have no idea if Mr. Collins' birds are/were fairly closely genetically related to some of these birds (that I understand came from the Alsford Hackle Farm), but it would surprise me if they didn't have a lot of common ancestry.

I've actually inquired with a friend about whether he'd have interest in raising a small flock of these GH birds and he's planning to get back to me tonight when we'll discuss, but I'm curious if any of you who are breeding these birds would be interested in sending a few hackles my way because I'm curious about their attributes. I'd be happy to pay shipping or even a small additional fee depending on what you had to send, but I'm not interested in paying full-price for the feathers because honestly, I can get feathers at full-price any number of places and they'd come from birds that I KNOW to be of high quality for dry flies (Metz, Keough, Collins, Whiting, etc. etc.), not to mention that I truly do have a lifetime supply of dry fly hackles already. The truth is that I've got an obsession and I really love everything about these hackles, the birds and the history of how they were bred.