Genetics question regarding mutt birds 😁

[renk777]

Veins are starting to recede and she's rotated back a tiny bit...presumably to zip. Hoping.

 

[renk777]

Update on little bird...no addt'l progress. It's been another 6 hrs. Veining pretty much gone. Went in and removed the majority of shell leaving the white papery membrane. The inner membrane still has her sucked in tight though the moisture I added yesterday and the humidity makes it a bit more discernable. I can't see what's under the outer layer or if any veins are present unseen so I guess we'll see what she does in the next few hours. My husband who typically isn't invested at all thinks I should remove her from the shell/membrane at this point but my gut says to give the process a little more time. She's very still though...no pushing....no cheeping. Just labored breathing. I did candle the other egg when I went in as there is no sign of life and it looks like it ceased growing a while back....seems to be mostly a mass with fluid but doesn't look like a chick. I still think bacteria got in when the eggs got yolk on them but I have to wonder since all 3 from the one hen passed. What are the odds? I've never had eggs that developed and then died. I know it happens; I've just never experienced it (excluding the time I threw eggs in my bra...that's another story for another day). And all from the same bird? Could some sort of lethal gene be present? Anyway, here's a pic of the little nugget. With this amount of an opening, I'd expect her to push out but nothing

 

[NatJ]

I still think bacteria got in when the eggs got yolk on them but I have to wonder since all 3 from the one hen passed. What are the odds? I've never had eggs that developed and then died. I know it happens; I've just never experienced it (excluding the time I threw eggs in my bra...that's another story for another day). And all from the same bird? Could some sort of lethal gene be present?

It could be from bacteria, or just bad luck, or a combination of factors. Having one die early on, one with trouble at hatching, and one that died after it had hatched makes me suspect that there are three different causes, and it's just coincidence that these eggs all came from the same hen.

It's possible that there is some gene that makes them more susceptible to bacteria or something else in the environment, but killing 3 of 3 is not how lethal genes usually work.

If the gene kills every chick that has it, the mother herself would not be alive to pass it on to her chicks.

Lethal genes tend to be recessives, where the chick only dies if it inherits the gene from both parents. They tend to show up in 1/4 of chicks, because that's how the numbers work if both parents have the dominant (non-lethal) trait and carry the recessive (lethal) trait.

 

[renk777]

Watched her try to push and shudder and just go still. So made the call to at least extricate her head from the membrane. She just laid there. Went outside to help my husband and came back in and she was able to get her foot out Guess at this point, if she has any fight left, she'll do the rest.

 

[renk777]

She's out! Happened while I was picking up kids at a little before 1 pm. My husband later admitted he reached in and helped her. He's a softy afterall haha The membrane is probably the toughest one I've ever felt; in Nature, pretty sure she would have died. I don't regret waiting as long as I did for her to try to get out; I think she needed the time to absorb. But I'm also glad we intervened today.... almost 48 hrs after I noticed the pip. I don't think she would have made it without assistance. She's sleeping now; I'll tuck her under mama hen tonight. I will have a genetics question when I post a pic later; she's dark...beak and legs are dark...but not like the other chick. Wondering if degree of dark pigment might mean there's a greater chance she's not a pullet? Waiting for her to fluff up before I take a photo

 

[renk777]

Before I post a pic of the chick (I haven't taken it yet; she's still sleeping) I want to post a pic of another rooster we had in the bunch earlier in the year. He was separated into his own flock and was my son's favorite. His name was Logan. In June, we had a really hot week and we lost him. He was fine one day...dead the next. No sign of a predator or illness. He was bottom of the roo totem pole when we recombined flocks and mostly kept to himself. He was an absolute sweetheart. As a chick, he looked very similar to the chick that hatched today. Dark....with dark beak and eye area and legs...but not silkie dark. He passed weeks before we left for vaca but looking at this chick, it dawned on me that he might have been just as sneaky as his half brother Sneaky B!

 

[NatJ]

He passed weeks before we left for vaca but looking at this chick, it dawned on me that he might have been just as sneaky as his half brother Sneaky B!

I think he is probably not the father, given the timing, but it's not impossible!

Even if he is not the father, the current chick might have gotten a similar mix of genes, if it looks similar.

 

[renk777]

Here's the little chicklet... That dark bantam roo didn't have any white down though. I know he was just a mutt bird but I loved his color and form and even though I didn't need 3 roosters ( I'm not even allowed to have chickens, technically), my hope was that if/when we moved, each of my roos would get their own pen and ladies and I'd learn genetics as I worked towards creating something specific in each pen. Sadly, he's gone and so is his dad. ..a nasty little thing that I just couldn't keep on with young children. Anyway, who's the likelier dad? Lokee, the dark LF Ameraucana/silkieX roo or Logan, the dark bantam roo that passed? Of note, I don't know the background of the bantam roos' parents but I have an idea. And I believe their dad did have a satin/silkie mutt hen in his background. I could post pics of parents and suspected grandparents but it would probably get too confusing.

 

[NatJ]

who's the likelier dad? Lokee, the dark LF Ameraucana/silkieX roo or Logan, the dark bantam roo that passed?

This one had the Brahma mother, right?

I'm thinking the chick has a walnut comb (pea + rose), which would mean it got the rose comb gene from the father-- but based on the photos, it looks like either one could have contributed that.

The chick has feathered legs, and the Brahma mother has feathered legs.
You said Lokee (Ameraucana/Silkie) has clean legs, and I can see that Logan (deceased bantam) has legs that look pretty heavily feathered.

I'm leaning toward Lokee being the father, but I cannot completely rule out Logan.

If the chick really does have the rose comb gene, we CAN rule out the "sneaky bantam" that has a single comb.

Do you happen to have a photo of Lokee (Ameracauna/Silkie) as a chick? Or remember what color he was?

I see what you mean about the chick's down looking like Logan's.

If the chick grows up to have SILVER in the feathers, that would mean Logan as the father. He's the only one in the whole group of adults that appears to have Silver (rather than gold.)
(Unless there were any other roosters present at any time in the month or two before the eggs were laid.)

Of note, I don't know the background of the bantam roos' parents but I have an idea. And I believe their dad did have a satin/silkie mutt hen in his background. I could post pics of parents and suspected grandparents but it would probably get too confusing.

i'm curious to see, but I'm not sure they would help much (at least yet) in figuring this out.

 

[renk777]

In those cases, if the father was Ayam Cemani (two copies of fibro, two copies of id+ that allows fibro to show), then he would give each chick one copy of fibro, and one copy of id+

Each chick would get one copy of not-fibro from the mother, which is recessive and doesn't matter here.

Daughters would have id+ on the Z chromosome from their father, and a W chromosome from their mother, so of course the fibro could show on them.

But sons should not show fibro unless they got id+ from their mother as well as their father.
If the mother was any breed with slate or willow shanks, she would also be id+ and could give it to her son. Hamburgs, Ameraucanas, and some other breeds have slate or willow legs (id+), as do many Easter Eggers. So a cross of Ayam Cemani with any of those "light" breeds (no fibro) would still allow fibro to show in both genders of offspring.

Me again! So regarding the 3 chicks from the brahma and the melanistic roo, you were right! One chick is dark skinned and splash and a pullet. The other 2...light skinned and cockerels. So now I have another question...I have a bantam hen out of the deceased EE/silkie cross. She's got black skin and black plumage with a gold neck. Sneaky calico bantam is the father of a clutch of eggs she hid and sat on. We discovered it when they were already 2 weeks into development. 8 chicks hatched but one passed....it appears she crushed it while nesting. All 8 chicks have light skin even though mom has black. Do the same genetic rules apply to chicks with a melanistic mom (and light skinned dad) that you described for ones with a melanistic dad (and light skinned mom)? They're all feathering out fast and more consistent with pullets. Based on the outcome with the brahma's chicks, I'd expect the reverse with this clutch...all males being dark skinned and all females light skinned. But I find it hard to believe I got 8 pullets! I'm thinking the rules might only apply when dad is melanistic and mom is light. Need your wisdom!