Getting a guardian puppy - any chicken<-->dog communicables I need to worry about?

[chickfused]

She gets amped up like this every day. She's basically an alligator. I think I need to employ less carrot and more stick, but in a way that won't actually harm her. She's going to stay on the leash for the next couple of weeks until she recalls every time. Sits every times. Lies down every time. Doesn't lunge at a chicken every time. Etc. Sure, I'll let her off to play with her ball...if _I_ go get it. Same for other games. I will initiate.

I think this is why I don't like dogs. You must break them to your will, or they must break you to theirs. It's pack dynamics. Cats, which can feed, shelter and care for themselves, only partner with humans when they really want to. If a cat loves you, it loves you because it wants to and everyone gets to be a whole being, with control over their lives. If a dog loves you, you might have had to make it a slave.

I'm icked out by the psychology of this whole thing but...she's a tool like any other tool on the farm. She will have a good life, but I'm not sure I will ever love my shovel either.

 

[NatJ]

She gets amped up like this every day. She's basically an alligator. I think I need to employ less carrot and more stick, but in a way that won't actually harm her. She's going to stay on the leash for the next couple of weeks until she recalls every time. Sits every times. Lies down every time. Doesn't lunge at a chicken every time.

I thought you said she was supposed to bond with the chickens, and protect them.
Yes, of course you have t avoid her chasing chickens (so a pen beside them might be good), but focusing too much on obeying you may be counter-productive at this stage.

She gets amped up like this every day. She's basically an alligator. I think I need to employ less carrot and more stick, but in a way that won't actually harm her. She's going to stay on the leash for the next couple of weeks until she recalls every time. Sits every times. Lies down every time. Doesn't lunge at a chicken every time. Etc. Sure, I'll let her off to play with her ball...if _I_ go get it. Same for other games. I will initiate.

I think this is why I don't like dogs. You must break them to your will, or they must break you to theirs. It's pack dynamics. Cats, which can feed, shelter and care for themselves, only partner with humans when they really want to. If a cat loves you, it loves you because it wants to and everyone gets to be a whole being, with control over their lives. If a dog loves you, you might have had to make it a slave.

I'm icked out by the psychology of this whole thing but...she's a tool like any other tool on the farm. She will have a good life, but I'm not sure I will ever love my shovel either.

That's one way to look at it.

But I think you are expecting too much, way too soon. She's only what, 10 weeks old? Many source suggest two years as the age when a guardian dog can reasonable be trusted with livestock without supervision. Many dog training books suggest waiting until age 6 months or even 1 year before starting formal obedience training. Sources on training a dog to herd sheep suggest waiting 6 to 12 months before starting (that's partly based on physical maturity.) Guide dogs are typically raised by puppy raisers until they are over a year old before they go on for more training to actually guide blind people (yes, they learn to sit during that time).

What these all have in common: don't expect mature behavior from a young puppy! They need to mature quite a bit before they can really be reliable in obeying any commands or doing any tasks.

Here's a specific example, a page on teaching recall for Guide Dog puppies (who are carefully bred and raised to be very trainable, responsible, and people-oriented.) If you notice, they start with an on-leash recall as soon as the person has the puppy, with a goal of a reliable off-leash recall by age 12 months. That is a lot of months of work! (The time frame relates to the maturity of the dog, as well as the time required to learn the skill.)

Yes, of course you can be teaching her things from the very beginning, including come, sit, down. But I would expect it to be something to work on for at least the next 6-12 months, not something she will learn in a few weeks and do perfectly forever after.

She's going to stay on the leash for the next couple of weeks until she recalls every time. Sits every times. Lies down every time. Doesn't lunge at a chicken every time. Etc. Sure, I'll let her off to play with her ball...if _I_ go get it. Same for other games. I will initiate.

I'm not sure what amount of time you expect her to be on leash each day, but as long as she's in a safe place (perimeter fence, no chickens), you can just avoid giving any commands unless you are in a position to enforce them. So if you cannot enforce a recall, don't call her, just lure her with a treat or a toy instead. Work on the sitting for a little while each day, but don't fret about it during the rest of each day (just don't tell her to sit unless you are ready to enforce it.) Work on the recall at a point when you can have her on a leash or long rope to enforce it.

I've noticed that if you can prevent bad behavior in a puppy (fences and leashes are really handy for this), some of these issues just go away when the puppy grows up-- a year or two later. I know one person with an English Shepherd, who says he really settled down around age 3 years.

I think this is why I don't like dogs. You must break them to your will, or they must break you to theirs. It's pack dynamics.

With many dogs, it doesn't have to be that antagonistic. Yes, the dog should recognize that you are the boss when it really comes down to it, but there's a lot of middle ground you are missing.

For example, if you call "dinner" and put down a dish of dog food, and the dog comes to eat, it does not really show anything about who is in charge. It just shows that you and the dog both recognize this signal means dinnertime. I find that most day-to-day interactions with a dog are like that: you and the dog can have a set of habits that work for both of you.

I'm icked out by the psychology of this whole thing but...she's a tool like any other tool on the farm. She will have a good life, but I'm not sure I will ever love my shovel either.

Have you had any other animals that you had to train? Or raised any children?
I think some of the skills are transferable.
In each case, it takes a long time, and the skills build up gradually.
If you don't keep practicing the skills, they may have to be re-learned later.

I never really "loved" a dog, and I am rather fond of my favorite shovel, so I certainly see where you are going there. But the shovel never needed any training, and does not work with me, so my "relationship" with it is quite different than with a dog.

For now, life will be much simpler if you can arrange to let her be a puppy, without too many restrictions but without causing problems either, and work on the obedience bit by bit over time. A safe pen next to the chickens, where she can spend her time when you are not working with her, will really save you a lot of effort. And then you can work on training for a few minutes, a few times a day, instead of trying to make it a big marathon that gets finished soon (because it won't.)

 

[chickfused]

Thank you for all of the advice. I have trained many people and kids, but none of my own. I've successfully trained cats and chickens to do small things I want them to, but not creatures like horses or goats.

I think part of the problem is there so much conflicting advice. Most videos I've been watching, and books I've been reading, suggest that drop it, sit, and stop freakin' biting can be taught reliably by 14 weeks (she's 10 weeks old), with recall being a longer process. They also stress that you must never let puppies develop bad habits to start with like snapping, biting, or being dominant/aggressive to start with. And she's a snappy, bitey mess that's gonna get me sued if I don't get it under control.

I tried a firmer, but very pleasant hand with her this morning, while on leash so she had no choice, and it was quite successful. Lots of hand feeding, good girl snacks, walks and pets, but you _will_ do what I'm asking you to do. Very calm, respectful, puppy, that licked instead of bit except for about a 5 minute meltdown.

She's actually better with the chickens when I'm not around than when I'm there. I'm not sure how to process that. She'd only be on the leash when we're working together. Otherwise free.

 

[NatJ]

Thank you for all of the advice. I have trained many people and kids, but none of my own. I've successfully trained cats and chickens to do small things I want them to, but not creatures like horses or goats.

I think part of the problem is there so much conflicting advice.

Oh, yes. I agree about the conflicting advice!

Most videos I've been watching, and books I've been reading, suggest that drop it, sit, and stop freakin' biting can be taught reliably by 14 weeks (she's 10 weeks old), with recall being a longer process.

That sounds at least partly right.
You probably can get to the point where she knows the command and does it most of the time, around that age-- then you just have to keep using the command, and keep an eye out for whether she is really doing it, for months or years before you can entirely trust her.

I feel that there are a lot of months between "mostly does it" and "completely reliable in all cases" for most puppy skills.

They also stress that you must never let puppies develop bad habits to start with like snapping, biting, or being dominant/aggressive to start with. And she's a snappy, bitey mess that's gonna get me sued if I don't get it under control.

I tried a firmer, but very pleasant hand with her this morning, while on leash so she had no choice, and it was quite successful. Lots of hand feeding, good girl snacks, walks and pets, but you _will_ do what I'm asking you to do. Very calm, respectful, puppy, that licked instead of bit except for about a 5 minute meltdown.

It sounds like you're on the right track!

The bit about never letting puppies develop bad habits-- I would agree in part, but it's definitely a process you have to keep working on. I think the real problems happen when people think it's cute in a puppy, so they laugh and encourage behavior that will later become a issue. I don't know what sources you've found, so I'll just mention: sometimes it helps to offer an appropriate chew toy when the dog is trying to mouth/bite the person. Sort of a way to say, "chew this, not me." (And sometimes it does not help, because the dog is only interested in mouthing you, not the toy.)

I'm not an expert by any means, but I have dealt with two puppies and a lot of it felt like dealing with human toddlers. If you tell them not to do something, be prepared to watch, and tell them again every few minutes (so it's easier to just put the item on a high shelf, or close a door, or otherwise make it accessible.) And every few days or weeks they have the brilliant idea to do some particular thing again, just when you thought they had forgotten about it. But eventually, after a while, you realize the puppy or the child hasn't done ___ in months, even though it used to be a common issue. It feels like forever while it's happening, but in hindsight it was "only" a few years.

Puppies and young humans have similar attention spans, too: very short. So just when you think they are happy doing something, they change. It can be exhausting.

She's actually better with the chickens when I'm not around than when I'm there. I'm not sure how to process that.

I'm not sure what to make of it either, but it does sound promising!

 

[chickfused]

The leash is like magic. I'm keeping her on the leash when I want her to mind or to train, and letting her run wild off leash without any attempt at commands to burn energy.

After two sessions (morning and night) sit is at 95%, we're learning down, we are learning to heel nicely with a short leash, recall is at 50% voluntary, and the biting and nipping reduced 75%. When we do bite and nip, we can be distracted with a very good chewy.

I also did not play tug of war with her. That might be catalyst for the nipping/biting so it's off the table for now.

Progress or good day? We'll find out tomorrow.

 

[chickfused]

Oh, in other news, my cat got the rooster tonight (briefly, the cat wasn't serious and the rooster is huge) and Copper completely failed to give a shit. At least she didn't join in!

 

[chickfused]

Really nice puppy this morning and then I put her back in the pen so I could go to work, and she lost her mind chicken chasing. The problem is that at least 2 of them chase her back, and I think she thinks it's a game. But of course, she will play too hard if she manages to catch one. So I had to bring her out until she got sleepy and then try again. That went better.

 

[Geena]

She's snapping and biting and ignoring commands and chasing chickens.

Maybe because of this-

One chicken is starting to stand up to her a lot,

You can't expect her to just take crap from the chickens and not defend herself. One of many reasons I don't think it's a good idea for a puppy to actually stay in with chickens. Chickens can be pretty brutal when they decide they don't like something/someone and then you can very easily get a tit for tat situation going on from both sides.

 

[Geena]

After two sessions (morning and night) sit is at 95%, we're learning down, we are learning to heel nicely with a short leash, recall is at 50% voluntary,

You might want to slow down, a lot, IMO that's way too many commands to be teaching at once to a pup that young. Personally at this age I would only be teaching come, wait and leave it, which I consider to be the most important commands. I don't even worry about sit, down, heel or that sort of thing until they are much older.

 

[Geena]

The problem is that at least 2 of them chase her back,

Yep, that's exactly what I was talking about.
I really think it would be better for everyone if you didn't leave her in the pen by herself. It's going to be really hard to train her not to go after the chickens when the chickens are going after her.

Like Nat said above

I've noticed that if you can prevent bad behavior in a puppy (fences and leashes are really handy for this), some of these issues just go away when the puppy grows up-- a year or two later.

it's often easier to just let the puppy be a puppy for the most part until they get that out of their system, and get enough age and smarts on them to settle down and actually learn what you are trying to teach them.
Pups are just like any other baby animal or human, their capacity for learning is dependent on and limited by their maturity level.