Guinea Keets Dying

[AFME]

Hi,

I incubated 8 Guinea Keats over Christmas, and they've been doing great for the first 3 weeks. However, we recently noticed one was flopping all over the place and kept falling over backwards etc. After a couple of days it sadly passed away. However, much to my surprise another healthy one died the same night! Now one more keet is looking weak, unbalanced, "drunk", and the others are looking a little unsteady and not so interested in their food or running around.

I've been brooding them indoors and feeding them what should be a good quality New Zealand feed (Supa Chick). You can't get high-protein starter feed here, the max is about 21% which is what I'm using. I've also been blending up some dried mealworms to add to the feed for extra protein. The feed is "medicated with "Bovatec" and claims to be suitable for all chicks - including meatbirds and wild birds. I gather from a more experienced local lady, she uses a different NZ feed with similar medication fine.

The keets were possibly in a room that was a little too warm for them, now in our lounge which is a bit cooler (its summer in NZ). Their food was also in this room, so hope its not "gone off" somehow.

My lady-contact suggested she gives her chicks a couple of drops of Aviverm (bird wormer) in their water which she says has helped some of her weaker keets survive. A bit surprising as I gather worms take longer to have an affect, but perhaps it wards off other bugs or parasites. I'm trying that for the first time now.

I'm also just trying them on sone unmedicated feed I've found, but lower protein and leaving out the blended mealworms for now.

Any thoughts or advice appreciated!

Thanks, Alex

 

[SmiYa0126]

Hello! Do you have access to game bird starter?

@R2elk please help! Guinea keets dying

 

[AFME]

Hello! Do you have access to game bird starter?

Hi, thanks - but no - there's no game bird or turkey starter around here. I am told that people in NZ have been generally successful using the chick starters available here, but I thought to bolster with ground dry mealworms.

Reading this, it seems Keets survive fine on lower protein feeds, just don't grow as fast - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/674004/ - and also a bit interesting to note they used soy protein. I may look into as sounds easier than grinding expensive mealworms!

Some of them seem to be perking up at the moment, though still 2 under the weather. Another possibility is they've had a bit too much high and low temperature variation with NZ summer days and nights.

 

[R2elk]

Hi, thanks - but no - there's no game bird or turkey starter around here. I am told that people in NZ have been generally successful using the chick starters available here, but I thought to bolster with ground dry mealworms.

Reading this, it seems Keets survive fine on lower protein feeds, just don't grow as fast - https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/674004/ - and also a bit interesting to note they used soy protein. I may look into as sounds easier than grinding expensive mealworms!

Some of them seem to be perking up at the moment, though still 2 under the weather. Another possibility is they've had a bit too much high and low temperature variation with NZ summer days and nights.

The problem is that it isn't just about the amount of protein but also about the lack of the other essentials that they need higher amounts of such as lysine, methionine and niacin.

They may survive on chick starter but they will never reach their full potential. Low quality feed early in the cycle can permanently stunt their growth.

One thing that can help is to add vitamin B complex at the rate of one half capsule dissolved in one gallon of water. Make it the only source of water. It should be made fresh daily.

Some people who cannot get the proper amount of protein for their keets or poults will supplement the feed with cat food.

It can be beneficial to supplement with chopped up hard boiled eggs minus the shell. It doesn't increase the protein but it is the best forms of protein.

Another possible cause can be keeping keets on wood chips for bedding. They can and will eat the wood chips but cannot digest them if they aren't provided with the proper sized grit.

At 3 weeks old, they still need their supplemental heat controlled.

They are also getting old enough that coccidiosis can be the problem. In the U.S. medicated feed usually means it contains amprolium which is used to treat coccidiosis.

Bovatec is an "is an ionophore that helps increase weight gain in cattle, and is used for control of coccidiosis."

 

[AFME]

The problem is that it isn't just about the amount of protein but also about the lack of the other essentials that they need higher amounts of such as lysine, methionine and niacin.

They may survive on chick starter but they will never reach their full potential. Low quality feed early in the cycle can permanently stunt their growth.

One thing that can help is to add vitamin B complex at the rate of one half capsule dissolved in one gallon of water. Make it the only source of water. It should be made fresh daily.

Some people who cannot get the proper amount of protein for their keets or poults will supplement the feed with cat food.

It can be beneficial to supplement with chopped up hard boiled eggs minus the shell. It doesn't increase the protein but it is the best forms of protein.

Another possible cause can be keeping keets on wood chips for bedding. They can and will eat the wood chips but cannot digest them if they aren't provided with the proper sized grit.

At 3 weeks old, they still need their supplemental heat controlled.

They are also getting old enough that coccidiosis can be the problem. In the U.S. medicated feed usually means it contains amprolium which is used to treat coccidiosis.

Bovatec is an "is an ionophore that helps increase weight gain in cattle, and is used for control of coccidiosis."

Thank you very much for your reply and tips. One more weak one died last night, but most of the others are looking perkier for now. I'll try to give them some egg today.

To be fair, this NZ feed includes most of the ingredients you mention including "vitamins" though not Niacin explicitly.

Can I ask what cat food? I bought some cat dried food (high protein) I tried putting in some water, but they ignored. I could try grinding up. The tinned cat food seemed to have surprisingly low protein. I also bought some fish food flakes as seemed to be high protein (30%), but they ignored that too.

I got some more dried mealworms, as they do seem a great source of protein and vitamins. I just hope me grinding them up wasn't making them 'bad' somehow. I'll try them whole perhaps, now they're bigger. https://www.webmd.com/diet/health-benefits-mealworms

The keets were tearing up kitchen-roll paper and puppy-pad fibres over a week ago, which I removed but probably did them no good. I tried shelf liners, but they're now on astroturf someone advised, for which the 'grass' doesn't come out easily.

 

[R2elk]

Guineas can be very finicky about new foods.

Chick starter has lysine, methionine and niacin but not at the higher levels that keets need.

If you can find a high protein cat food, I would crumble it and feed it dry mixed with their regular feed.

Your previous bedding may be the problem. You should have immediately provided them with an appropriste sized grit.

Good luck.

 

[AFME]

Guineas can be very finicky about new foods.

Chick starter has lysine, methionine and niacin but not at the higher levels that keets need.

If you can find a high protein cat food, I would crumble it and feed it dry mixed with their regular feed.

Your previous bedding may be the problem. You should have immediately provided them with an appropriste sized grit.

Good luck.

Hi again and thank you for your thoughts. I may have found the issue, partly on your comments,

I used Supa Chick Starter which "looks" great and natural, though doesn't list ingredient quantities other than protein 21%.

A different, reputable Chick Starter by NRM looks more "manufactured", has "only" 19% protein, but explicitly lists Lysine at 0.95%. I contacted Supa Feeds who said their Lysine is 0.15% ! This sounds incredibly low for keets and chicks, both needing around 1%. I have raised this with them.

This research paper stopped experimenting with Lysine at 0.8% because too many keets were dying - https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0032579119321480 - but found 1.1% optimal. Lysine seems to affect appetite and general brain and body growth.

Since they hatched I'd been adding ground mealworms to their Supa Chick feed primarily to add protein (they're 50% protein). However, it coincidentally turns out mealworms are also a brilliant source of Lysine (2.67%) and other amino acids. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The-amino-acids-composition-in-mealworm_tbl2_342891671

My adding mealworms possibly gave them the absolute minimum lysine they needed (0.6% to 0.8%). But, as they got older I read that they possibly needed less protein, so I reduced the amount of mealworms and possibly gave them some feed without. This was about the same time as them losing their appetite and some starting to look weak and "drunk". Changing their location and temperature may not have helped either.

I have now changed to the NRM 0.95% lysine feed and they are perking up greatly, even a weak "hunched" one that looked to be the next to die. I calculate offering just 50g-100g of dried mealworms in addition to their ~550g of NRM feed in a chick feeder should yield 22-to-24% protein and 1.1-to-1.2% lysine. Thankfully they love eating mealworms more than the dried cat-food I've offered them etc. As NRM has lysine properly measured, its possible the feed has other better elements too.

Regarding their bedding, yes I had given them some fine grit though possibly not as much as needed.

Thanks again,

Alex