Gun control and the second amendment....

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It is debated that that means armed. It really does not matter. The militia was always the whole of the people who chooses to be. It was always a community level group that worked together to guard the people of that community. They could be called up by the state but that really meant that they were asked to become regular army without enlisting for a set time. So they are the army but can go home if they want.

Anyway the main point is the words "the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" There was no question at that time that it meant the fed could not disarm or regulate the arms of the people. The state on the other hand could if they wanted to. That is why most states have something worded like that in the state Constitution to. But at the federal level, the second gave the people the right to own an carry any arms they chose to. The reason being that the states needed to be able to let there people carry arms equal to any military.

The Constitution now applies to the states. So to you does that mean that the states also should no longer be able to regulate any arms without amending the Constitution...


A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

I think it does matter. Trying to keep it in context. The writers of the Constitution did not waste a lot of words. They did not tend to throw extra words in there just because wanted to. They had a reason to put it there or they would have just said:

the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

They didn't do that.

The Constitution has always applied to the States. I don't know what "Well Regulate Militia" actually means in this context. I read this to mean that the Feds cannot regulate arms but the States can. I think it puts a restriction on the States that they cannot stop "the people" from keeping a gun in their home. But how much latitude does the State to regulate? Does this mean you have to be a member of the militia to be “the people”? Do you have to have training as determined by the State? Can the State keep guns out of the hands of convicted Felons or the mentally insane? Do you have to be of military age to bear arms?

I was carrying a gun and shooting rabbits and squirrels without adult supervision long before I was of military age. I did carry a license when I left my father’s farm.

I look at this as more of an attempt to assure George Washington had a group of people used to guns, armed and ready in case England, France, or Spain sent their standing professional army to take some of our land or put us back in colonial status.

I hear the argument about this being a personal right. I think that means the States would have to have a good reason to take away our guns.

To me, the discussion on automatic or semi-automatic is not about the Constitution. Would someone care to read off the list of make and models of the automatic and semi-automatic weapons available to George and his army? Things change. The Constitution is a living document, hard to amend but it is still possible to legally, according to the Constitution, change it. After all we are talking about a change here, the Second “change” to the Constitution. I think the flexibility in this is that the States can change their regulations as times change without going back to change the Constitution.

Times have changed. We now have the best standing army in the world. We no longer are worried about a stronger England taking the land west of the Appalachians or Spain expanding Florida. The States have their National Guard, who are well trained and way to experienced. Frankly, I’m not sure how appropriate the Second Amendment is in today’s world since I think it was intended for national security. I just don’t buy that George and his friends would set up a revolutionary group ready to take over from then if they got somebody mad. That is anarchy and George was not an anarchist. Some of the signers of the Declaration I’m not so sure about, but not the signers of the Constitution.

That does not mean I don’t have a gun and ammunition in my home. In Arkansas, that right is not going to go away anytime soon.
 
Dunno.. I've chased a couple coyotes in my bare feet and undies. They left. Not wild, but I did grab a dog that was in the process of trying to kill my chicken and got him to drop the chicken. Bare feet again.

No experience with mountain lions.
Sure.. I can go chase them off.. but what good does that do when they turn right around and come back? I've thought about putting up "no trespassing" signs for the local wildlife.. but that does just as much good as telling they that they were bad and don't do it again.. (besides.. they laughed at me when I went running out waving my arms in my nightie and fuzzy pink bunny slippers.. I've no idea why....)
The deer that ate my garden laughed at the pinwheels and bars of soap I put up.. the birds scoffed at the bird netting that I covered the fruit trees with.. so yeah.. telling a larger meat eating predator that they are bad and should stay away works just as well as pinwheels and no trespassing signs..
The mountain lion sat on the porch roof for a while.. he wasn't impressed with my arm waving OR my fuzzy pink bunny slippers...
 
"News Flash: The founding fathers were not psychics who could predict the future. They didn't think of everything.

The Constitution doesn't mention online identity theft. Does that mean we shouldn't protect ourselves from it? The genius of the framers of the Constitution is that they wrote a living document that was designed to be amended as we go." - Annabel

 
"News Flash: The founding fathers were not psychics who could predict the future. They didn't think of everything.

The Constitution doesn't mention online identity theft. Does that mean we shouldn't protect ourselves from it? The genius of the framers of the Constitution is that they wrote a living document that was designed to be amended as we go." - Annabel


You can't amend a right.

Yes, the Constitution can change by amendment, but it's hardly the "change with the times" document you want it to be. If it were that... it might as well not exist.

A living Constitution is a dead Constitution. Behold the paradox of modern arrogance. Perhaps our right to free speech shall also change with the times. Perhaps our right to worship whom or what we please shall also change with the times. Perhaps our right to a trial shall also change with the times.

Perhaps change can be a very bad thing when directed by very bad people - or well-meaning people who don't understand the consequences of such change. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

My right to defend myself, my property, and my freedom - through the use of arms - is unchangeable. My right to speak my mind through whatever medium I choose is unchangeable. My right to disagree with my government is unchangeable. My right to worship my God is unchangeable. These are fundamental rights belonging to every human being on Earth. They can be infringed, but they cannot be taken away. They do not change with the times.

Do not presume that because my rights are described, that by changing that description one may alter or take away my rights. You cannot. Barack Obama cannot. George Bush could not. Congress cannot. My state legislature cannot. The U.N. cannot.
 
Quote: It matters for reference to why they put the second amendment in there but it has no legal meaning its self. It gives no requirement of being "regulated" it only says it is needed. The only requirement it gives to to ban the fed from restricting the people or the state.


Quote: At the time it was wrote had no effect on states an gun bans were not unusual at a state or local level. The second amendment only started applying to the states an local governments in the 1920s. At that point "the right of the people to keep an bear arms shall not be infringed" started restricting the states too. So at that point the states lose the power to regulate arms to the same level as the fed. (For what thats worth.) What "well regulated" meant becomes a historical issue an not a legal one at that point.

Historically though "regulated" is a adjective. In means "in order" "the way it should be" "well trained" "functioning" exc. It give no legal change to what is being said, its only a adjective to the why. The word "Good" could be used today to have the same meaning.
 
"News Flash: The founding fathers were not psychics who could predict the future. They didn't think of everything.

The Constitution doesn't mention online identity theft. Does that mean we shouldn't protect ourselves from it? The genius of the framers of the Constitution is that they wrote a living document that was designed to be amended as we go." - Annabel
So amend it. We have a system to do that. But right now the second amendment says what it says, if people dont like it they can change it the right way an quit trying to go around it. Anti-gun people dont want to follow the rules an amend the Constitution, they want congress to skip the rules. All these gun bans require an amendment to fit with our system. Not saying the pro gun people wont fight an amendment but at least it would be following the rules.
 
Thanks for that update. I can count on you to give accurate information.

I'm still not convinced the Second Amendment is still actually valid due to how society has changed, but we both know it's not going to be changed.
 
I think many people think the second amendment is outdated. I dont agree but people will think what they think. What bugs me is the idea of writing laws that infringe on a right. That is the mob rule that we are supposed to be protected from. Now if the system was followed an an amendment was passed, I wont be happy but that would not be a mob rule constitutional violation.

The first machine gun was invented in 1718 an pirates were known to sack whole towns with ships full of cannon an men armed to the teeth well before that. I just dont see that the pro/anti gun thing has really changed from the late 1700s. What has changed is people willingness to give up there freedoms to let the government take care of them.
 
Quote: It says "keep and BEAR", meaning have AND CARRY.
The original intent was defense against ALL enemies, including tyrannical Govts
 
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