Help! Springtime Stink in the Run

[TalkALittle]

Ok. First a little background.
9 chickens (soon to be 8).
Approx. 8'x12' covered run, poorly placed in lowest part of the yard.
Yard backs up to wetlands so high water table and ground is really moist, especially in Spring.
Soil is mostly clay.

Currently I have about 3-4 inches of sand in the run. It started out as 6" last spring (May) but has sunk into the soil. I fully expected this and anticipated adding sand each year. I diligently scoop and sift through the run each morning and evening, removing the poop to the compost pile. I was thrilled with the sand last year when I installed it in May and into the winter. All winter long I was sifting away and the girls had plenty of clean, dry sand to scratch in while the 4+ feet of snow fell outside the covered and tarped run--life was great.

Enter the spring thaw and snow melt. The run is wet--not sopping wet, but no longer siftable. The water table is rising and the sand is getting wet from beneath. The poops are getting trod upon and ground into the sand and things are starting to stink. Only half the snow is melted and we've still got spring rains to come. I'm keeping illegal chickens on the down-low so "stink factor" is big for me. This is my first early spring with the chickens so the first time dealing with this issue. I would really like to stick with the sand because it was so nice for most of the year, but due to the current problem I'm contemplating a conversion to deep litter.

If I stick with sand, what measures do I need to take to remedy my current situation and prevent this from becoming an annual problem? If the solution is to get more sand, remember that I still have 2+ feet of snow in the yard so the truck can't get back to dump it near the run and I would have to wheelbarrow it back there. Not impossible if it were a one time thing, but not practical if it becomes a required annual event. Plus, there's no guarantee I can get dry sand delivered. The sand I got last year was moist and did not sift well until it dried out.

If I go with DL, will it remedy my current situation and possibly prevent future springtime stink worries? Secondly, if I go with DL what mix of materials should I use. I have access to wood shavings (from feed store), free woodshop sweepings (a mixture ranging from sawdust to big wood curls but not consistent from bag to bag), shredded leaves or whole leaves (would be damp as I have to dig them from the middle of last autumn's leaf pile that is beneath snow), chopped hay bits swept from the feed store's barn floor that I can get cheaply by the garbage bagful), 1/2 bale of straw that I already have but am not keen to use because I've read it goes moldy before breaking down. That's a lot of "browns" right now but there is the chicken poop for "greens" and once spring really hits, I'll have grass clippings too. Given my moist environment, what proportions should I mix in and how deep to best combat the stink right now?

Let me add that my situation doesn't come as a complete shock to me. I knew that I'd have issues in the spring season regardless of what substrate I used in the run and that my first year (or two) would be a big experiment. Originally the run was not roofed so I figured it was better to experiment with the sand first. Unfortunately, relocating the coop and run are not an option as the only really dryer place is in the front yard.

 

[TalkALittle]

Well, it's been more than a month since my last update and I'm happy to report that things are going great with the deep litter.

Changes/updates since my last posting:

I've removed the pallets from the run and my litter is directly on the ground now. (I actually did this a while ago.) If you read back in the thread you'll know I placed down pallets because the ground was so wet and I was convinced I needed to let it drain/dry a bit before I put the litter directly on the ground. I was afraid of having sopping wet litter. In retrospect, the litter could have handled the moisture level and would probably have dried out well given how much the girls turn it with their scratching.

I've done away with the sand area. I had been maintaining the run as half litter (on pallets) and half the original sand surface, in part to see exactly how long the ground was going to stay wet, and as a little experiment to see which side the hens preferred. Deep litter won that contest so when I removed the pallets I figured it wasn't worth trying to keep it half and half.

I have not removed a single poop from my run in all this time yet I have no stink and no flies--AT ALL. And with no need to scoop the run, my chicken-tending routine has been cut in half. That means more time to spend watching them rather than cleaning up after them.

When I give them fresh water I just dump the old stuff in the run. Imagine that! Forget all my earlier worry about wetness in the run, the litter handles it beautifully. Wherever I dump the water is usually the first place the girls go scratch at. It has been nice dry weather (no humidity yet) and things were a bit dusty, so I took my watering can in there the other day and wet it down a bit. The girls stirred it all up for me. It was still fluffy but it cut down on some of the dust.

A couple of weeks ago I dumped about 4 5-gallon buckets of compost from the pile out in the woods into the run. I had left the original sand in the run and added the litter on top so I figured that adding some compost to the litter would give it the jumpstart that it wasn't going to get from the sand below.

I've got bugs! Don't worry, it's good news. I relocated the water in the run and when I moved the blocks that it sits on, there were some creepy crawlers underneath. That's something I didn't use to see when the run was just sand. As usual, the girls were right there sticking their beaks in my business and jumped in and gobbled them right up.

I dumped my first load of grass clippings in the run the other day. The girls loved it. They are all mixed in now and once they start to break down should help some with the dryness of the litter.

One important thing to note that I've not mentioned prior is that I believe my hens had coccidiosis. Right about the time of the big snow melt and as I was battling the wetness, I noticed some frothy, squirty poops on the poop board. I purchased both Valbazen and Corrid on the advice to treat for both cocci and worms. Well, I never got around to worming the girls, but I did give them the Corrid in their water. After only two days I saw no more wet poops. I finished the course of Corrid and I've not seen a watery poop since. I am willing to bet the outbreak was the result of being housed on the feces laden wet sand. It will be interesting to see if I have any issues with cocci in the future.

Well, that's pretty much it. Unless something unforeseen happens I'm thinking that things will go on like this well into the fall. When I start prepping the run for winter I'll give another update. My plan is to keep periodically updating until this time next year. I'm so interested to see how the deep litter will compare to the sand through the winter and if it will withstand the wetness that next spring will inevitably bring. Hopefully my story will be useful others trying to decide which type of material to use in their run or dealing with wetness and odor.

 

[yellowchicks]

Keep the sand layer in place to use as a permeable filter layer for ground water fluctuation. Put 4" to 6" thick layer of pine shaving on top, and do your DLM directly on top of the sand layer. You may need to build up the perimeter to contain the pine shaving. Keep stirring the pine shaving daily to absorb the moisture, add more pine shaving as needed.

Materials such as leaves, grass, straw, hay and wood chips are not as absorbent for your situation, and saw dust is too fine which will make a mess.

Keep the roof above the run or else the deep litter will stink too if it gets wet.

 

[Blooie]

I have read those same horror stories! I don't know about "too wet" underneath the deep litter. I know we don't want it sopping wet, but if you can dry it out to some degree so it's just damp, then start your DL, I think you'll be surprised. I was doing mine wrong. Even though it was easy maintenance and I had no odor problems, and despite the fact that my chickens do very well on it, I wasn't getting a good breakdown of the litter. My problems were easily solved but if a method of keeping odors down and chickens healthy can work even when the method is questionable, then just imagine the benefits when it's all working properly! This is what I have learned:

-- I relied too heavily on pine shavings and not enough on other natural materials, like dry leaves, (complete with small twigs to help with aeration and prevent compaction) maybe a little straw, and whatever else I can find. Most of the microbes we want working our deep litter need oxygen to work well and small twigs and such provide that. I have learned to put in whatever I have on hand. I use grass clippings in the summer when they are available, leaves, garden trimmings and weeds, some straw, and water. Yep, water.

-- My litter was entirely too dry. It was like powder, and boy the dust proved it. After a year, I can still identify pine shavings, even deep in the litter in contact with the ground. Composting in the coop or run needs some moisture to work well. My good friend Beekissed even recommended that I inoculate my litter with a spray bottle and a mixture of ACV and water to jump start it. I just pulled the litter back a bit and very lightly sprayed an area, then pushed the litter back over it. The proportions don't matter that much, because then I gave the entire coop and run a gentle spray down with plain water from the hose. I also now dump the waterers on the litter sometimes when I'm cleaning them. I don't do that often, because it's easy to overdo and saturate a spot, but she was right! The litter around the waterer was in much better condition than what was in the rest of the coop. It is the same way in the run where melting snow and a little rain runs off the sides of it. Those edges all the way around the run are decomposing beautifully. It's the majority of the run and coop that were too dry. As soon as the weather stablilizes, I'm going to pull the litter back and hose down the ground underneath it, then put the same litter back over the dampened soil. I want to encourage the little bugs and worms and such, and I have never seen a worm one under the litter in either the coop or the run. Of course, our soil here is like concrete - another reason to dampen it before the litter goes in. Now I give it a light spray once in awhile if I notice that the dust is getting bad.

-- I was stirring it way too much and way too often. All I really needed to do was use a rake and lightly flip the poop just under the litter. Boy, you'd have thought I was digging for gold the way I dug deep into that litter and turned it over. And that, by the way, added tremendously to the amount of dust in the coop as well.

-- I've been using a poop board under the roosts. Now, that sounded great in theory, and I was one of the greatest advocates for using poop boards. But then, why? If I need the nitrogen from the poop to help in the decomposition process, why was I scooping it out into a bucket and taking it away from where it was needed? Simply raking that accumulated night time poop evenly across the surface of the litter, then lightly flipping some litter over it makes way more sense, and takes way less time than using a scoop and cleaning a poop board. The Sweet PDZ I was using on the board was also absorbent and it contributed to the dust in the air in there as well..

I've just recently started making these changes, and I've already noticed a difference in the deep litter. Right now I have too much straw in it, but in my defense the coop and run aren't heated or insulated so the chickens loved digging holes in the loose, fluffy stuff and snuggling in. I still get an occasional whiff of ammonia if I overwet it, but if it's in the run then I take some litter from the coop and add it, or vice versa. Easy peasy!

I think the most intimidating thing about deep litter is that it takes longer to explain it than it does to just do it. After a few paragraphs my eyes would glaze over and I'd begin wondering about other things, like: flies fly with their legs dangling down and then right in front of you they are suddenly walking on the ceiling.....I didn't see them flip over so their feet were up, did you? Oh, but I digress. Bee did a video of her deep litter and posted it recently. I'll see if I can find it and then edit this novel with the link.

Here's the edit with the link to Beekissed's video.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/70/deep-litter-method/1660

 

[TalkALittle]

Here's the edit with the link to Beekissed's video.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/70/deep-litter-method/1660

Just wanted to say thanks for the link and for taking the time to describe your deep litter. I appreciate all the helpful input.

 

[RonP]

I don't want to go thicker until I can put another row of boards around the bottom to keep them from flinging it all out.

I'll update again at the end of April.

Instead of boards, I used 1/2 hardware cloth to keep the deep litter in the coop.

I just took a 2" high roll and "wrapped the bottom 2 feet of the run.

Keeps racoon hands out and deep litter in.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Anything that can absorb moisture will get wet and stay that way for a while.
To prevent an annual problem. Move it to a slope or the top of a hill.

 

[TalkALittle]

Unfortunately, relocating the coop and run are not an option as the only really dryer place is in the front yard.

The backyard is actually quite level. I don't have a slope or hill to put it on. The property is low-lying wetlands.

 

[TalkALittle]

This really isn't a "how do I dry out my run?" post. It's more a "given my situation can I hope to eliminate odor and still use sand or should I just go with DL?"

I'm always going to have to deal with the moisture--it's the price I pay for living where I do. I'm hoping for advice on whether it is realistic to expect to be able to eliminate the odor problem I am now encountering with my current sand situation by modifying it in some way, and if not, advise on whether DLM would do a better job at mediating the odor problem.

Many people who use DLM recommend adding some moisture to their litter. When composting, it is common to have to add moisture to the pile. I compost elsewhere on my property and usually don't have to add much water to the pile. Annual rainfall plus moisture from the ground below are usually sufficient. I actually think that in my covered run DLM might work well but don't want to completely abandon the sand until I've heard if there are other options.

Oh, I also know I could dig a French drain or put in a dry well which would improve drainage around the coop. But if DLM gets me low-odor results without digging then I'd rather do that.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I don't think it will help the odor. Deep litter will just get wet and stay wet. Can you bring in soil to elevate the ground in that part of the yard? The smell is likely from anaerobic bacteria thriving in the wet conditions.
I've had some luck with this stuff. http://www.gro2max.com/#!farm360