Hen looks overweight but has a well-defined keel ... ?

[casportpony]

@casportpony.... I knew you would be able to help out with that.... many thanks.
Do you have any input on my suggestion of reducing daylight and feed to (hopefully) stop ovulation and thereby prevent the problem escalating?

Reducing daylight and feed will probably stop production, but I have no idea if stopping production will help.

 

[DuckGirl77]

Wow, thanks, all of you, for all this information. It's alot to consider all at once, but I'm ready!
Ok ... so stopping her egg production will help but does not diminish the importance of getting rid of those egg yolks/fluid, especially since this is the summer? Makes sense. I think you're right, Barbara; I read somewhere that sometimes the egg yolks can be absorbed, although I think my hen is past the point where I could just stop her from laying and let her absorb the yolks. I think the strain on her system will get to her too quickly unless I get rid of some of that fluid. She may have absorbed some of the yolks, though, or at least she was standing less upright today and was more active both yesterday and today, and she's sleeping on the roosts tonight. But, she still doesn't look great, so I'm going to have to get that fluid out of there. Is there a difference between draining the abdomen and getting rid of the egg yolks, or does draining just get rid of the fluid around the yolks but ultimately leaves the egg yolks sitting in there? (I'm sorry if these are dumb questions; I'm a little new to this whole internally laying thing.)
So I take it I need to do three things: one, get rid of the fluid inside; two, stop more yolks from accumulating by stopping egg production; and three, change her diet so it won't encourage laying. Although it is a recurring problem, will it eventually, if she lives this long, stop being an issue once she is too old to lay anymore?
Looking at the chart (btw, thank you @casportpony !), I think she's on the scrawny side. So, should I still go ahead with the reduced feed or not? She really likes eating the soggy layer food from the ducks' bowl and snacks on that throughout the day. She acts like she hasn't eaten all morning when I let her have access to it.
Their layer pellets have 16.5% protein, but I can get poultry grower with 15% protein, which obviously would have a lower calcium level, so I'll go with that instead.

 

[PD-Riverman]

, Barbara; I read somewhere that sometimes the egg yolks can be absorbed, although I think my hen is past the point where I could just stop her from laying and let her absorb the yolks.

Hmmm, I do not think if she is internal laying she will absorb the yolks,. Did you see the pics I posted on this? Not a pretty site. When a hen gets like that---personally and from what I have read---Not much hope for her---So I personally would take mine out of her Misery instead of doing things to try and keep her here for a few more weeks/months/etc, but this one is yours. We do not know what type of Misery/pain she is in??? Your call!!! Good Luck!!

 

[rebrascora]

It is unlikely that her body can reabsorb the yolks. They are outside of the digestive tract so I don't think there is any mechanism for them to be removed by the body once they become solid. Fluids however could perhaps transmit via osmosis/diffusion through body tissue and eventually be excreted but it should give her some significant and instantaneous relief by draining her manually....assuming she does have a fluid build up..... as I said, it could possibly be a tumour and not internal laying and ascites. All you can do is try to drain it and see what happens.

I would ferment the 15% grower (which sounds ideal for this situation) and restrict her to that but adjust the quantity so that she is reasonably sated and see how you go with the reduced daylight. You can expect her comb to get less red and a bit dry and shrivelled looking, so she will not look as healthy as perhaps you are used to, and of course she will look scruffy during moult but that is going to be the trade off for hopefully living longer.
I think you need to see if it will work before looking years down the line. She is probably going to get more prone to infection in those yolks as she gets older, so I would be considering this a success if you can give her another year or two managing her in this way. Some hens manage to still lay at 8+years, so I think you have to look at this as a seasonal management of her from now on....if it works at all.

 

[DuckGirl77]

Hmmm, I do not think if she is internal laying she will absorb the yolks,. Did you see the pics I posted on this? Not a pretty site. When a hen gets like that---personally and from what I have read---Not much hope for her---So I personally would take mine out of her Misery instead of doing things to try and keep her here for a few more weeks/months/etc, but this one is yours. We do not know what type of Misery/pain she is in??? Your call!!! Good Luck!!

Oh ... ok. No, I didn't see the pictures ... I'll look for them. But I have seen a couple other pictures of the inside of a chicken which has died from this, and you're right, it doesn't look too good. I do still want to try to treat her, though, since she's looking a little better anyways. Her abdomen is somewhat smaller, which is weird because this happened before I started doing anything to treat her. Anyways, the strain on her legs (and probably her lungs, too) is lessened. If it starts getting too bad, though, you're probably right. I'll see how she does with some treatment first. Thanks!

It is unlikely that her body can reabsorb the yolks. They are outside of the digestive tract so I don't think there is any mechanism for them to be removed by the body once they become solid. Fluids however could perhaps transmit via osmosis/diffusion through body tissue and eventually be excreted but it should give her some significant and instantaneous relief by draining her manually....assuming she does have a fluid build up..... as I said, it could possibly be a tumour and not internal laying and ascites. All you can do is try to drain it and see what happens.

I would ferment the 15% grower (which sounds ideal for this situation) and restrict her to that but adjust the quantity so that she is reasonably sated and see how you go with the reduced daylight. You can expect her comb to get less red and a bit dry and shrivelled looking, so she will not look as healthy as perhaps you are used to, and of course she will look scruffy during moult but that is going to be the trade off for hopefully living longer.
I think you need to see if it will work before looking years down the line. She is probably going to get more prone to infection in those yolks as she gets older, so I would be considering this a success if you can give her another year or two managing her in this way. Some hens manage to still lay at 8+years, so I think you have to look at this as a seasonal management of her from now on....if it works at all.

Ok, so I should be looking to relieve, not cure, her? I guess my expectations shouldn't be too high, since I'm going to have to take each difficulty as it comes. Whatever happens, I am learning alot about a condition I knew next to nothing about a week ago, so that's at least one good thing.
I think I am going to need to take her to the vet to drain out the fluid. I watched some videos so I now know how to do it, but I'm not sure if I could. I would probably be that one person who pokes the wrong place or passes out in the middle of the process or something weird like that.
I also got that 15% protein grower feed for her, so now I just have to learn how to ferment, which should be fun ... or at least educational! I'll watch for the changes you mentioned. Hopefully, she'll take this new treatment well and not end up too scraggly ... ... but at least I'm prepared now if she looks a little worse for wear.

Thanks again both of you for your advice. I know you're at a disadvantage because you can't actually see the hen for yourself, but you've given me great information nonetheless.

 

[rebrascora]

Fermenting is easy, just get a small pot....since you are only fermenting for one....unless you decide to put your whole flock on the flock raiser and ferment it for them all. Put a small scoop of feed in the bucket, cover with water, add a few drops of Apple Cider Vinegar with the mother, give it a stir, loosely cover and let it get on with it. Check later and add more water if it is too dry once the pellets have absorbed the water and broken down..... you are aiming for a porridge(oatmeal) consistency. Leave it for a couple of days for the bacteria in the ACV to start working, giving it a little stir once or twice a day and when it starts to get a bit bubbly it is ready to use. Skim the top off for feed and add more pellets and water to the remainder, stir and cover. It is as easy as that. You don't need to keep adding ACV as the good bacteria multiply during the fermentation process. Every once in a while, empty and start a new one, as sometimes it can turn a bit sour.

My funds don't run to vets for chickens so it's do or die for me, but I can understand your reticence...... You get an amazing sense of achievement if it goes well and you are successful, but you have to be prepared to accept failure. Since I draw the line at a vets visit, I work on the principle that she will die if I don't do something, so my intervention can only give her a chance of survival, which means if it doesn't work, I haven't lost anything and perhaps gained some experience. Even a vet can get it wrong, particularly if they don't know much about chickens.... and you still get a bill!

Good luck whatever you decide.

Regards

Barbara

 

[DuckGirl77]

Fermenting is easy, just get a small pot....since you are only fermenting for one....unless you decide to put your whole flock on the flock raiser and ferment it for them all. Put a small scoop of feed in the bucket, cover with water, add a few drops of Apple Cider Vinegar with the mother, give it a stir, loosely cover and let it get on with it. Check later and add more water if it is too dry once the pellets have absorbed the water and broken down..... you are aiming for a porridge(oatmeal) consistency. Leave it for a couple of days for the bacteria in the ACV to start working, giving it a little stir once or twice a day and when it starts to get a bit bubbly it is ready to use. Skim the top off for feed and add more pellets and water to the remainder, stir and cover. It is as easy as that. You don't need to keep adding ACV as the good bacteria multiply during the fermentation process. Every once in a while, empty and start a new one, as sometimes it can turn a bit sour.

My funds don't run to vets for chickens so it's do or die for me, but I can understand your reticence...... You get an amazing sense of achievement if it goes well and you are successful, but you have to be prepared to accept failure. Since I draw the line at a vets visit, I work on the principle that she will die if I don't do something, so my intervention can only give her a chance of survival, which means if it doesn't work, I haven't lost anything and perhaps gained some experience. Even a vet can get it wrong, particularly if they don't know much about chickens.... and you still get a bill!

Good luck whatever you decide.

Regards

Barbara

I am really sorry I didn't respond til now - I did see your post on Friday and meant to answer it later on the same day .... meant to ....
Anyways, thanks for your patience!
I followed your directions on fermenting and gave her her first taste of fermented feed today. It was surprisingly easy to make, and she LOVES it. So, maybe I'll even start fermenting for the whole flock!

That is a good principle for chicken keeping. I usually try to avoid vet visits for the reasons you listed: they're expensive and sometimes even unhelpful!
I wish chickens didn't weren't so susceptible to problems like this! Must be the result of inbreeding I guess? Anyways, that's getting off-topic.
Thanks!

 

[rebrascora]

So pleased you managed well with the fermenting..... the term makes you think it's going to be dauntingly complicated and as you discovered, it's not. It's funny how feed suddenly becomes almost as good as a treat when it's fermented!
I also soak my scratch grains for a few days until they start to bubble. No ACV required with those, they ferment very well with the natural yeasts on the grains. Of course, it's not a good idea to give them too much scratch but because they swell so much when you soak them, a small amount goes a long way.

 

[DuckGirl77]

So pleased you managed well with the fermenting..... the term makes you think it's going to be dauntingly complicated and as you discovered, it's not. It's funny how feed suddenly becomes almost as good as a treat when it's fermented!
I also soak my scratch grains for a few days until they start to bubble. No ACV required with those, they ferment very well with the natural yeasts on the grains. Of course, it's not a good idea to give them too much scratch but because they swell so much when you soak them, a small amount goes a long way.

Hm, good idea. They do love scratch so much, so that would be awesome if it could be made (somewhat) healthy for them through fermentation. That also explains a video I watched about fermentation; they didn't use ACV, which kinda confused me, but they must have been doing scratch grains.

 

[rebrascora]

Still need to go easy with the scratch grains even when fermented. There are natural yeasts present on the grains which will start the process without ACV. Layer/grower is heat treated in the manufacture process I believe which will destroy most of those yeasts hence using the ACV to start the process.