hen with watery poop, thin shells, and thin, but otherwise healthy

[cowcreekgeek]

Thanks a bunch Cowcreekgeek!

That study was great! (I'm such a geek for scientific papers)

Good to know my dosages were slightly above the highest effectiveness mark for that study (at about 24mg/kg). I did use albendazole. And followed Dawg53's suggestion of a 10 day followup for eggs etc.
I dose the birds individually orally to be sure they are getting the meds as opposed to water mixture. They are tame and some actually like the taste of the meds.

go figure.


I am also a believer of the ACV in the water - been using as soon as they hit the coop floor. - of the same mind that it is a cheap, no-harm, thing to do.

Did palpitations and she seems to have nothing stuck on the out-take (as there is hardly anything left to palpitate on the poor emaciated thing).
Crop empties and fills (with water mainly 'cause she is not eating anything anymore).
There is only so much one can do without the luxuries of vet equipment and $$$$.

I have actually been through your signature links through your response to another members'post. - Very helpful by the way. Much easier than scouring Mercks Manual. Which is what i have been doing for the past few weeks.

I have a few suspicions of what it may be (mainly a a bunch of secondaries to a big one) But, we will only know for sure after the necropsy.

She has been reducing her intake of water and is refusing food more.

I am not one to force-feed (i know some out there do and I am not against it) but, it is where I draw the line for my own sanity sake.
If she is still refusing in the morning - I will be taking her in to the lab for a merciful end and necropsy.

PS Too bad I can't change the thread name and cross out "otherwise healthy".

Thank you; I'm one of those that over-thinks most nearly [any/every]thing ~'-)

I've seen a few post in which Dawg53's alternative diets got somethin' into birds that would have otherwise quit eatin' a bit sooner, givin' far less chance for happier outcomes, which this doesn't appear to have been destined to become.

I sorta agree about not force-feeding in most cases, but that's one of those lines that only you should choose to draw in the proverbial dusting box ... it's usually made in those moments that you just ... well ... you just know, when it's time to stop. Sorry you both had to go through it, but the experience serves to strengthen you, which serves the flock well.

If you like the geeky stuff, just wait 'til I've the time to work on Gallus gallus domesticus dot com ... slated for development during the worst weather of this winter, provided I can ever get caught up before it comes. I've become a bit frustrated by the way everything's scattered around the 'net, and too difficult for folks to find what they need, and when they need it most (i.e. those links mighta been far more helpful, had you had 'em sooner, which leaves me feelin' even more ashamed of myself for draggin' my feet )-;~

 

[DaniellePage]

Here we are 3 weeks after the 1st post.

I brought her to the Avian Health Lab this morning to have her euthanized and a necropsy performed.

This was so much harder to do than I thought it would be.

The people there were so nice and considerate. I know she had a peaceful end.
It was for her best, my best and the best for the flock.
That is what I get for letting myself get attached to these birds.

(especially this one most of all).

She was just not getting any better.
She was still walking around (i had her in a large box in the garage) albeit slow. Tail still held high, interested in catching bugs - although no interest in eating.
This morning she nibbled at some hard-boiled egg yolk and cooked rolled oats in buttermilk but didn't eat more than a tablespoon. This after almost 60 hours of straight refusal of anything to eat.
Her water intake even reduced considerably.
Her wattles had shrunk to about half of what they were and her comb was shriveling.
Legs still red, still lifting, still shaking.
Still emaciated.
Still stopping to tuck her head and close her eyes in pain.

I guess all I can do now is wait for the report and hope its nothing the others can get.

I will let y'all know how the report turns out. Hopefully, it will be of some help.


I miss your fun, energetic chickenality already little girl... thanks for making me smile.

 

[delisha]

I look forward to find out what was wrong. Learning is part of helping a flocks future. My neighbor has a very young hen who *high steps*. Sorry for your loss.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

...

I miss your fun, energetic chickenality already little girl... thanks for making me smile.

I was fine, right up 'til you went 'n said that.
Simply beautiful.


:: puts back on scuffed/dented armor ::

"I'm sorry that your laying hen did not respond well to the good treatment that she was given, and hope the results of necropsy may provide you with information useful, as you continue your excellent efforts to properly manage your flock."

 

[blondiebee181]

I was fine, right up 'til you went 'n said that.
Simply beautiful.


:: puts back on scuffed/dented armor ::

"I'm sorry that your laying hen did not respond well to the good treatment that she was given, and hope the results of necropsy may provide you with information useful, as you continue your excellent efforts to properly manage your flock."

Well said. I agree, it is hard not to get attatched to the little buggers....I know I would bawl if anything happened to my little darlings, I am quite attatched to mine. I am sorry for your loss, but I do think that the necropsy is the way to go and that it will at least give you some closure.

 

[DaniellePage]

GROSS NECROPSY RESULTS:




I have ordered the histology. That will be a while.
Will update when I get it.

 

[cowcreekgeek]

GROSS NECROPSY RESULTS:




I have ordered the histology. That will be a while.
Will update when I get it.

Cause and effect, in that the high-steppin' may have been due to whatever it was that caused the kidneys to swell, as well as the reluctance to put anything else into her body ... not that I've any more than guesses as to what it was, but just applyin' my simple logic that there's only room for what's supposed to be in there (properly functioning organs of normal size, so the food's got a place to go )-;~

There's an excellent online presentation of older slides on the anatomy of the chicken that you're gonna wanna see: >>peck here<< to visit it in a new window ... you can also 'right click' and 'save as' to have your own copy of this file (anatomy-of-the-chicken.swf ~'-)

 

[iron chicken]

this story makes me sad....

 

[delisha]

Thank you for posting results. The necropsy will help so many others. It is unfortunate when an animal is ill. It is good that you took such a responsible choice in having the necropsy done.

 

[DaniellePage]

Final results...





As I was thinking...
Whatever caused her illness this summer (virus, bacteria, Heat stress?, whatever? ) did a number on her system (weather it was the illness or just a genetically weaker system).

I also think that is why she also became infected with the roundworms and none of the others had visual "proof" after worming - a weak system encouraged further infection.

And... the antibiotics may have hastened the already present condition. Tetracyclines have been known to cause renal tubular nephrosis. (I used tetracyclines as it was a broad spectrum as suggested by the vet (he had no idea the pre-existing conditions, nor did I, of Zeebra - he acted in the best interest of the flock and my family to control the spread of the staph infections. No blame is to be passed). I followed the dosage instructions to the "T". She may have been "overdosed" due to 1 - weight loss and 2 - increased water consumption.

The leg redness, itching and swelling - possibly gout from the kidney problems.

Here is a scientific abstract on the function of heterophyls in avian species
http://www.poultryscience.org/ps/paperpdfs/98/ps98972.pdf
and another one
http://vet.sagepub.com/content/28/5/419.full.pdf

OMG - Kidney disease in layers: A must read! (IBV was on my "suspect list" - I did not know that IB does not always present with respiratory symptoms. Hmmm.... Also another good argument for ACV and fermented feed. - although mine were on AVC water since they arrived. (I got them all when they were 7 weeks old so, till then, I only know they were all fed the same medicated chick starter crumbles.
http://www.worldpoultry.net/Breeder...-damage-is-emerging-in-laying-hens-WP008719W/

And for my fellow geeks... a nice long fireside read about renal diseases and diagnoses in avians
http://www.2ndchance.info/goutpollocAvianrenaldis.pdf

I think the summary to the above article well... sumarizes this case.
(the following is quoted from the link above (http://www.2ndchance.info/goutpollocAvianrenaldis.pdf)
bold and underline is my "highlighting"

"Summary
Renal disease in the avian patient is probably under-recognized. An important
reason may be the subtle nature of clinical signs until disease is quite
advanced. Common diagnostic tests performed in the diagnosis of renal disease
include a complete blood cell count, chemistry panel, urinalysis, survey
radiographs, and laparoscopic evaluation and biopsy of the kidneys. Depending
on the patient’s signs, history, and physical examination findings,
additional diagnostic tests may include heavy metal blood levels, fecal flotation,
blood culture, and viral serologic tests. Important underlying causes of
renal disease in the avian patient include renal coccidiosis in waterfowl, dehydration,
toxicosis, systemic bacterial infection, and amyloidosis. Primary
renal tumors are relatively uncommon in birds with the notable exception of
the budgerigar parakeet. When gout is present, it should generally be considered
as a clinical manifestation of severe renal dysfunction [4,78]. The
mainstay of treatment for renal disease in the bird is supportive care such
as fluid therapy and nutritional support. Additional therapy should ideally
be tailored to the underlying pathogenesis of disease and specific sequelae."


So... there you go... case "closed". ... time to move on.